7 ms·
Craig Murray seeks UN protection in Switzerland against British persecution
- TeeMassive 3y ago"Under Britain’s draconian anti-terror laws, Murray had no right to a lawyer during his hour-long detention, and no right to remain silent. He was forced to provide passwords for his electronic devices. " Is that true? How is that even legal? How the courts of a liberal democracy allow that?
- throwaway4good 3y agoIt is standard when you are detained at a border crossing. Edit: I see he is an UK citizen and he was detained at Glasgow airport; I would think he has some rights there - I guess that’s why UK police had to use the terror laws - alternative would be to ask the Swiss (or wherever he was flying) to detain him.
- Belopolye 3y ago>How the courts of a liberal democracy allow that? The conclusion is that the United Kingdom is not a liberal democracy. The term I see thrown around is “electoral authoritarianism,” where elections may be free and fair but institutions don’t reflect liberal values. Maybe we’re discovering that democracy and liberal values don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoAnother term would be "Managed Democracy".
- edgyquant 3y agoDiscovering? This was a main argument during the founding the United States and the reason it’s supposed to be a republic not a democracy.
- Belopolye 3y agoIf we’re being fair, it was a Republic where only land-owning, white, and Christian men were allowed to have representation in Congress. That system was never going to survive alongside immigration (driven by capital demanding cheaper foreign labor in the 1800s), the growth of middle-class and educated women, and the spread into the frontier.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Sporktacular 3y agoUgh, this again. They are not exclusive concepts. And the US constitution denotes both. It's not an accident that contemporary US Republicans have started repeating this talking point. The last Republican challenger to win the presidency (not re-election) by popular vote was George HW Bush 35 years ago. Expect to see less 'will of the people' talk from them in the years ahead. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/republicans-are-suddenly-afraid-democracy/616685/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/republican...
- newZWhoDis 3y agoI refuse to travel to the UK anymore because of their draconian laws. It’s never been a problem for me, but I don’t want to roll the dice. Luckily there’s not much worth seeing there anyways.
- throwaway4good 3y agoMost European countries have similar laws … we just don’t use them on white people …
- einpoklum 3y agoIt seems that people who serve the public against the political establishment, like Assange and Murray, are awarded with the title of honorary brown person.
- jjgreen 3y agoVery wise, I live here and would advise against visiting. It's like China without the interesting cuisine.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago> draconian laws Do we have a word for what used to be called draconian laws? Some countries still practice original-sense draconian laws and I don't want to conflate them with the not nearly as bad anti-due-process laws such as the ones here.
- bvoq 3y agoThe UK is closer to South Africa than to Europe. It's corruption ridden to the top and 1 in 5 children live in food poverty despite it being the 5th richest country. The mismanagement of law and order is so obvious. Birmingham went bust, privatisation spurred energy bills, etc.
- geraldhh 3y agoGreetings from Brexit
- derelicta 3y agoI'm afraid Switzerland isn't a safe haven anymore either. People voted yes on a significant extension of police powers allowing FedPol to enforce "anti-terrorist" measures without judicial oversight. Sure those measures can be fought in a federal court, but I wouldnt be surprised if we do bow to other european powers like we did for the Proton mail affair.
- _trampeltier 3y agoWhen I think about the other countrys in Europe or north america, I think Switzerland is still pretty safe. But yes, also in Switzerland the sling is getting smaller around personal freedom.
- throwaway4good 3y agoI don’t know where you would go for asylum in his situation? Maybe Hong Kong?
- derelicta 3y agoAnyplace that doesnt bow to our American overlords ig.
- hankchinaski 3y agoRussia
- throwaway4good 3y agoThat has its own obvious problems. Snowden went to Hong Kong first rather than Switzerland or Dubai. Of course he ends up in Moscow.
- DonaldFisk 3y agoThe UK suspended its extradition treaty with Hong Kong in 2020 and I don't think it's been resumed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53476811 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53476811
- 3y ago
- einpoklum 3y agoIt is ironic that Mr. Murray is the subject of a counter-terrorism investigation: The treatment of himself, and of Julian Assange, can itself be said to rise to the level of terrorism. The imprisonment, investigations, prison abuse, extradition - these are intended to instill fear, dread, terror, among journalists, potential whistleblowers and free speech advocates in Britain.
- sriram_malhar 3y agoI'd be interested in knowing why this comment is being downvoted.
- faeriechangling 3y agoI mean sure, he is a victim of British state terrorism. Arbitrary detention and all that.
- LordShredda 3y agoThis is why "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" is such a bad excuse for the invasion of privacy everyone is tolerating. British law enforcement is targeting journalists and whistleblowers, not actual criminals.
- amluto 3y agoThe article seems to consist of somewhat reasonable paragraphs with this bit in the middle: > Murray’s targeting under anti-terror laws is a warning to the working class. Under conditions of mass popular opposition to Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, backed by US and British imperialism, a terrified ruling class is moving to criminalize left-wing, anti-war and socialist activity. That’s not exactly quality unbiased reporting.
- jjulius 3y agoI'm not sure why one would expect unbiased reporting from an outlet called World Socialist Web Site.
- amluto 3y agoI was expecting the bias to have some apparent relation to the topic of the article. (There may well be bias about the actual subject too. I don’t know anything about it.)
- _trampeltier 3y agoI'm sorry, but there are not many sources right now. Even more bad is, when I search for "Craig Murray" on Duckduckgo News, I'm getting 0 links at all.
- Sporktacular 3y agoSo true. The guy is a former diplomat - so not exactly your average Joe. Suggesting this as an example of criminalising the working class is absurd. A desperate attempt to draw a connection to the site's purpose.
- mellosouls 3y agoMurray’s targeting under anti-terror laws is a warning to the working class. Under conditions of mass popular opposition to Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, backed by US and British imperialism, a terrified ruling class is moving to criminalize left-wing, anti-war and socialist activity. Ok.
- jl6 3y ago> “But in the coming Gaza genocide, every act of armed resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah will have my support. If that is a crime, send me back to jail.” https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1713335006121140511 https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/171333500612114051...
- zarzavat 3y agoThat is clearly illegal to say in the UK. I do not agree with the very selective way that our hate speech laws are enforced (it is not illegal to call for the killing of people in Gaza), but outright support of listed terrorism organizations is not a grey area.
- dundarious 3y agoI agree it's probably against UK law, but why use harsh counter-terrorism laws to deal with a speech matter? The Met (not the same police force) was just a few months ago found to have abused the exceptional powers in question. https://apnews.com/article/uk-police-should-not-have-stopped-french-publisher-under-antiterror-law-ca972828ec858a636ebd05f009a0a5b9 https://apnews.com/article/uk-police-should-not-have-stopped... > Jonathan Hall, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, said officers should not have used Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000, which gives them exceptional powers to root out terrorists, to determine if Moret had been involved in the turbulent pension reform demonstrations that had roiled France for months. > “The problem with exercising counterterrorism powers to investigate whether an individual is a peaceful protestor or a violent protestor is that it is using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut,” Hall said. Using the same powers (admittedly less harshly) regarding a post on twitter.com is similarly "using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut" -- there isn't even the question of violence in this case.
- mike_d 3y ago> I agree it's probably against UK law, but why use harsh counter-terrorism laws to deal with a speech matter When the speech is promoting and supporting a terrorist organization (according to UK law), the police have a reasonable expectation to investigate and see if that individual is providing other material support to the organization. It is literally peak FAFO.
- dundarious 3y agoHis own account of the letter (including photo of its contents), his detainment, and the relevant trip: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/10/incredibly-i-face-investigation-for-terrorism-defence-funds-appeal/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/10/incredibly-i... He seems to say they had a focus on a pro-Palestine rally he attended in Iceland (while on a trip about Assange, but current events led to his impromptu attendance), and a Twitter post of his (that he had already deleted).
- dundarious 3y agoI misread, he didn't say he deleted the post already. > They asked how considered my tweets were. I replied that those which were links to my blog posts were my considered writing. Others were more ephemeral, and like everyone else I sometimes made mistakes and sometimes apologised. They asked if I deleted tweets and I said very seldom. > I volunteered that I thought I understood the tweet that worried them and agreed it could have been more nuanced. This was the limitation of twitter. It was intended to refer only to the current situation within Gaza and the Palestinian people’s right of self-defence from genocide. Presumably in reference to: https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1713335006121140511 https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/171333500612114051... To which he clarified: > In a war (which this now officially is) any act that does not involve targeting civilians (or recklessly endangering them).
- LispSporks22 3y agoHow did UK come to be such a police state?
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y agoMost countries in the anglosphere are not as liberal as the US when it comes to individual rights. They are socially liberal yes but in terms of rule of law, the US has much stronger protection for individuals, albeit rich individuals benefit far more from it than poor ones.
- boeingUH60 3y ago[flagged]
- geraldhh 3y agowhile i sympathize with him and his stated intentions, i somehow can't shake the feeling that there is something else going on