5 ms·

It's crazy how even X3 is still so much behind M1 in most raw performance metrics.

by poisonborz 3y ago

Varloom 3y ago
Agreed, generic ARM cores are weak. The solution is to go custom like Apple did and soon Qualcomm with Oryon Cores.
- vGPU 3y ago
  Google is trying that and it’s not working out so well.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Yes, but that says you can’t phone it in. Google’s senior managers are not sweating Pixel performance unless it will lead to a decline in ad revenues - contrast with AI where they very quickly realized that people asking ChatGPT questions would mean zero ad sales.
  - wyldfire 3y ago
    If you're referring to the Tensor SoCs, no they're not using custom ARM cores. They're using the reference Cortex codes from ARM because Tensor is pretty similar to the Exynos.
- zamalek 3y ago
  It's also still a phone chip, so I guess it actually isn't about speed over efficiency.
IshKebab 3y ago
Do you have any actual numbers on that? Are they even remotely the same area? E.g. Wikipedia says X3 has 512-1024kB of L2 cache per core, M1 has 3MB.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  Apple mainly does two things: Much larger caches ($$$ but they have the margins) and memory inside the CPU package (shorter and faster connections, but can't upgrade memory). [Edit] + Buying up all state of the art production capacities so competition is one node behind. There is no Apple secret sauce. As long as the others don't want to go that route - and they seem not to be in need to cut into their margins (AMD shows how X3D helps with performance). I think what is interesting especially for Intel/AMD is that Xiaomi drops legacy 32 bit ARM and translates apps to 64bit. Dropping 16/32bits can reduce die size which can be used for larger caches for the same price.
  - fh9302 3y ago
    > Buying up all state of the art production capacities so competition is one node behind. M2 is a 5nm (N5P) chip, AMD laptops already use 4nm.
  - tubs 3y ago
    The memory is not inside the package any more than on any other flip chip or pop soc, ie every mobile ap soc made in the past 5 years. Please stop propagating this myth. One of Apple's actual secret sauces is they can make their big caches fast. Typically latency increases with cache size so it's a tradeoff. Apple trades off less here. And it's not some "only fast because tsmc" it's just really solid engineering at both the architectural and physical design level.
    - KingOfCoders 3y ago
      The Apple reality distortion field is in full swing: "The memory is not inside the package" vs. "The SoC and RAM chips are mounted together in a system-in-a-package design." [0] Every mobile SOC does the same? All Intel SOCs do this? Which one? Can you point out the 16Gb of RAM in this Meteor Lake SOC? https://images.anandtech.com/doci/20046/Meteor_Lake_Hotchips%20_%20Wilfred%20_%20final_submit%20%281%29-16.png https://images.anandtech.com/doci/20046/Meteor_Lake_Hotchips... The Wikipedia article on Meteor lake doesn't even mention memory at all [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M2#Memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M2#Memory [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Lake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Lake
ahoka 3y ago
Apples and oranges.
- ant6n 3y ago
  Apples and Arms
  - geraldcombs 3y ago
    Apples and Acorns
ksec 3y ago
It's crazy how X4 has almost caught up to M2 / A16 in most raw performance metrics.
- acdha 3y ago
  A device shipping in 2024 being almost as fast as one which shipped several years earlier is … crazy? We don’t even know what the final product will be like - they have a history of not delivering due to yield or thermal issues - but I hope they pull it off because better competition benefits everyone. Edit: this is the benchmark I’m basing my comment on finding it a bit slower than the 2022 A16. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Alleged-Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Geekbench-scores-indicate-A17-Bionic-CPU-superiority.701761.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Alleged-Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Gee...
  - ksec 3y ago
    >A device shipping in 2024 ... Xiaomi 14 ( using Snarpdragon Gen 3 ) is announced and reviewed. Pre-Order started and shipping in November. >being almost as fast as one which shipped several years earlier The A16 has been shipped for a little more than a year. I could have compared it to A17 Pro and the answer would still be the same. Since A17 Pro is only slightly faster with a Clockspeed improvement. And that is comparing in Cortex X4 vs A17 Pro Clock to Clock, X4 would be landing within 10% range. >is … crazy? Considering 99.99999999% of the internet said Apple will always be 3-5 years ahead and ARM ( or Snapdragon or any other non Apple CPU design ) will never be able to match Apple, despite being shown how X3 is the proof and X4 finally shown it. Yes. I find it pretty crazy.
    - acdha 3y ago
      As noted, I’m relying on early leaked benchmarks showing near-A16 level performance - we’ll see how those devices perform when they ship and people can run tests on production hardware. I’m perfectly willing to change my “in 2024” to “in November 2023 for China, 2024 everywhere else” - I don’t have an emotional stake in this. > Considering 99.99999999% of the internet said Apple will always be 3-5 years ahead and ARM ( or Snapdragon or any other non Apple CPU design ) will never be able to match Apple Serious citation needed on that. Most people said Apple did a good job and that Qualcomm needed to step it up considerably to stay in the game. If they have, that’ll be great for many millions of buyers so competition will have worked exactly the way we wanted it to.
monlockandkey 3y ago
That is because performance isn't the only metric. Things like cost make a big difference as they would need to make it decently priced for silicon board partners to buy. Just the amount of L2 cache in the M1 is 3x-6x as compared to the X3 core which adds cost to the chip. The M1/M2 is an amazing chip, however you need to consider that these chips are in different price brackets hence the performance discrepancy.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I thought the X line was aiming for performance.
  - monlockandkey 3y ago
    Yes it is for performance. But it is performance at a reasonable cost. The new Qualcomm Oryon chips are more powerful but also much more expensive. So the X lineup is actually quite reasonable if you want smartphones to be "affordable". https://www.androidauthority.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-8-gen-4-more-expensive-3379069/ https://www.androidauthority.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-8-gen-4...
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Oh, these are cellphone chips. I guess we’ll have to wait for the next Neoverse before we get interesting comparisons to Apple’s M chips and Intel/AMD’s mainline ones.

It's crazy how even X3 is still so much behind M1 in most raw performance metrics.

Varloom 3y ago

Agreed, generic ARM cores are weak. The solution is to go custom like Apple did and soon Qualcomm with Oryon Cores.

vGPU 3y ago
Google is trying that and it’s not working out so well.
- acdha 3y ago
  Yes, but that says you can’t phone it in. Google’s senior managers are not sweating Pixel performance unless it will lead to a decline in ad revenues - contrast with AI where they very quickly realized that people asking ChatGPT questions would mean zero ad sales.
- wyldfire 3y ago
  If you're referring to the Tensor SoCs, no they're not using custom ARM cores. They're using the reference Cortex codes from ARM because Tensor is pretty similar to the Exynos.
zamalek 3y ago
It's also still a phone chip, so I guess it actually isn't about speed over efficiency.

IshKebab 3y ago

Do you have any actual numbers on that? Are they even remotely the same area? E.g. Wikipedia says X3 has 512-1024kB of L2 cache per core, M1 has 3MB.

KingOfCoders 3y ago
Apple mainly does two things: Much larger caches ($$$ but they have the margins) and memory inside the CPU package (shorter and faster connections, but can't upgrade memory). [Edit] + Buying up all state of the art production capacities so competition is one node behind. There is no Apple secret sauce. As long as the others don't want to go that route - and they seem not to be in need to cut into their margins (AMD shows how X3D helps with performance). I think what is interesting especially for Intel/AMD is that Xiaomi drops legacy 32 bit ARM and translates apps to 64bit. Dropping 16/32bits can reduce die size which can be used for larger caches for the same price.
- fh9302 3y ago
  > Buying up all state of the art production capacities so competition is one node behind. M2 is a 5nm (N5P) chip, AMD laptops already use 4nm.
- tubs 3y ago
  The memory is not inside the package any more than on any other flip chip or pop soc, ie every mobile ap soc made in the past 5 years. Please stop propagating this myth. One of Apple's actual secret sauces is they can make their big caches fast. Typically latency increases with cache size so it's a tradeoff. Apple trades off less here. And it's not some "only fast because tsmc" it's just really solid engineering at both the architectural and physical design level.
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    The Apple reality distortion field is in full swing: "The memory is not inside the package" vs. "The SoC and RAM chips are mounted together in a system-in-a-package design." [0] Every mobile SOC does the same? All Intel SOCs do this? Which one? Can you point out the 16Gb of RAM in this Meteor Lake SOC? https://images.anandtech.com/doci/20046/Meteor_Lake_Hotchips%20_%20Wilfred%20_%20final_submit%20%281%29-16.png https://images.anandtech.com/doci/20046/Meteor_Lake_Hotchips... The Wikipedia article on Meteor lake doesn't even mention memory at all [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M2#Memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M2#Memory [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Lake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Lake

ahoka 3y ago

Apples and oranges.

ant6n 3y ago
Apples and Arms
- geraldcombs 3y ago
  Apples and Acorns

ksec 3y ago

It's crazy how X4 has almost caught up to M2 / A16 in most raw performance metrics.

acdha 3y ago
A device shipping in 2024 being almost as fast as one which shipped several years earlier is … crazy? We don’t even know what the final product will be like - they have a history of not delivering due to yield or thermal issues - but I hope they pull it off because better competition benefits everyone. Edit: this is the benchmark I’m basing my comment on finding it a bit slower than the 2022 A16. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Alleged-Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Geekbench-scores-indicate-A17-Bionic-CPU-superiority.701761.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Alleged-Snapdragon-8-Gen-3-Gee...
- ksec 3y ago
  >A device shipping in 2024 ... Xiaomi 14 ( using Snarpdragon Gen 3 ) is announced and reviewed. Pre-Order started and shipping in November. >being almost as fast as one which shipped several years earlier The A16 has been shipped for a little more than a year. I could have compared it to A17 Pro and the answer would still be the same. Since A17 Pro is only slightly faster with a Clockspeed improvement. And that is comparing in Cortex X4 vs A17 Pro Clock to Clock, X4 would be landing within 10% range. >is … crazy? Considering 99.99999999% of the internet said Apple will always be 3-5 years ahead and ARM ( or Snapdragon or any other non Apple CPU design ) will never be able to match Apple, despite being shown how X3 is the proof and X4 finally shown it. Yes. I find it pretty crazy.
  - acdha 3y ago
    As noted, I’m relying on early leaked benchmarks showing near-A16 level performance - we’ll see how those devices perform when they ship and people can run tests on production hardware. I’m perfectly willing to change my “in 2024” to “in November 2023 for China, 2024 everywhere else” - I don’t have an emotional stake in this. > Considering 99.99999999% of the internet said Apple will always be 3-5 years ahead and ARM ( or Snapdragon or any other non Apple CPU design ) will never be able to match Apple Serious citation needed on that. Most people said Apple did a good job and that Qualcomm needed to step it up considerably to stay in the game. If they have, that’ll be great for many millions of buyers so competition will have worked exactly the way we wanted it to.

monlockandkey 3y ago

That is because performance isn't the only metric. Things like cost make a big difference as they would need to make it decently priced for silicon board partners to buy. Just the amount of L2 cache in the M1 is 3x-6x as compared to the X3 core which adds cost to the chip. The M1/M2 is an amazing chip, however you need to consider that these chips are in different price brackets hence the performance discrepancy.

bee_rider 3y ago
I thought the X line was aiming for performance.
- monlockandkey 3y ago
  Yes it is for performance. But it is performance at a reasonable cost. The new Qualcomm Oryon chips are more powerful but also much more expensive. So the X lineup is actually quite reasonable if you want smartphones to be "affordable". https://www.androidauthority.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-8-gen-4-more-expensive-3379069/ https://www.androidauthority.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-8-gen-4...
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Oh, these are cellphone chips. I guess we’ll have to wait for the next Neoverse before we get interesting comparisons to Apple’s M chips and Intel/AMD’s mainline ones.