5 ms·

> What future would that be? A future where they stop killing Israeli's and slowly build up the trust to restore normal relations and trade. Gaza was given the

> What future would that be? A future where they stop killing Israeli's and slowly build up the trust to restore normal relations and trade. Gaza was given the chance when Israel decoccupied Gaza in 2005. They decided to vote in Hamas in a democratic election instead. > Gazan citizens do not have a say in much of anything, they're either combatants, captives or hostages depending on what your perspective from outside Gaza is. As I have said elsewhere, about 6% to 8% of the entire adult male population are Hamas soldiers. Hamas is a significant percentage of the entire population. Of course they can choose a different path. It's notable that Hamas doesn't even bother to censor internet access in Gaza, beyond porn. They don't need to. They have enough support without internet censorship.

enterprise_cog 3y ago
What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path.
- ovao 3y ago
  Would you argue that the Hamas attack against Israeli non-military citizens on October 7th was an attempt by Palestinians to normalize relations?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Would it be asking too much for you to argue in good faith? That would stop the discussion from derailing. If you can't then maybe don't comment at all?
    - ovao 3y ago
      I didn’t make an argument; I posed a question to the parent.
  - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
    The State of Israel welcomed the attack. You would have to be an utter idiot to believe otherwise given how strong their surveillance apparatus is and the type of equipment it took to break through the barrier.
    - edistra 3y ago
      Do you have any legit source to support that claim ? It's really surprising indeed that they were not aware of the attack and that they could not defend their settlements. But that could also be explained by thinking themselves untouchable, leading now to an overreaction to hide their responsibility in this failure to protect their citizens.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        I don't think there is a legit source to support that claim. But, there is some precedent, the Israeli hawks need Hamas as much as Hamas needs them and in the past they have actually propped up Hamas because they couldn't stomach the likes of Abbas who might be able to successfully establish a Palestinian state. This whole conflict is kept alive by stupidity like that (and the continued settlement program, which is effectively an unofficial way to keep expanding Israel without directly being as accountable).
      - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
        There's plenty of circumstantial evidence to support this. Somehow Israel, which has one of the best spy programs on the globe, completely missed any and all planning of Hamas forces to... drive a tractor into a fence for several hours.... but they're perfectly capable of coming up with calls from Hamas militants after the fact. And their utterly superior military force was somehow unable to stop this supposed massacre for hours after it had begun? There's being drunk on kool-aid and then there's snorting the powder straight out of the package. And Hamas, which launched 36K projectiles from 2001 to 2023 at Israel and managed to kill less than 100 people, magically was able to kill 1400 people in no time flat, and just trust them because they're Israel. Hamas is able to list the names and ages and localities of every single person that Israel slaughters, but Israel somehow doesn't have the advanced capabilities to do the same. It's an awful funny coincidence that Netanyahu, who had been under political and prosecutorial pressure, suddenly and magically found himself a new conflict to embroil himself in so that he could take additional powers for himself.
- petertodd 3y ago
  > What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path. Hamas slaughtered over a thousand Jewish civilians three weeks ago. They've been continuously launching rockets into Israel since then. They have been able to do that because Israel had chosen to partially normalize relations, eg by allowing trucks to import goods into Gaza, allowing the import of concrete and other building supplies, and allowing Gazan's to enter Israel to work. The latter is particularly atrocious, as it appears that many of those cross-border workers used their access to Israel to help Hamas massacre Israeli civilians. Obviously, normalizing relations prior to Hamas taking steps to reject violence comes at enormous risk. If Israel had instead decided against taking steps to normalize relations with Gaza, 1400 and counting Israeli's would probably still be alive today.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    I don't particularly value an Israeli life any higher than I do a Palestinian one. Palestinians have died in larger numbers, just not as suddenly and that's what makes the difference in terms of the response but dead is dead, no matter whether you're the statistic of the day or a victim in a large scale attack. Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution you have to work really hard to not sink to the level of your attacker - or even lower. Note that Israel has zero reasons to keep settling more and more ground and bulldozing more Palestinian homes and that as long as that keeps happening and they overreact to various attacks this conflict will simply never end. And that's exactly how Hamas and the Hawks want it, because it legitimizes their existence, they relish the conflict.
    - edanm 3y ago
      First, I want to emphatically agree - an Israeli life isn't worth any more than a Palestinian life. > Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution I want to argue against your framing here, because that is not how Israelis see things. At least the normal ones don't think of it as "striking back in retribution" or anything like that. The thing is, Hamas has declared war on Israel. They slaughtered 1400 people, took hostages, and are actively and continually firing rockets at Israel. There's been 3 weeks of rocket attacks. Luckily Israel has lots of defensive capabilities to block these kinds of attacks, but they are actively waging a war in the hopes of killing as many Israelis as possible. So the situation from Israel's perspective is - we are bordering a semi-state, whose government is intent on destroying Israel, have shown themselves capable of killing many Israelis, and is continuing to wage war. What should Israel do? The only response that most Israelis come to, which is what any other country in the world would do when faced with a similar situation, is to attack the enemy country until it doesn't have the capability to hurt you anymore. It's not some kind of "tit for tat" terrorist attack. It's literally a bordering country intent on destroying you and actively trying to do so. And btw, people seem to think that Israel is all-powerful or something here and can just choose whatever response it wants - but several other countries are actively threatening to join the war and attack Israel all at once. It's as if Mexico invaded the States, killed thousands of Americans, was firing rockets at American cities, and Canada was threatening to join in the war. What kind of response would make sense in this context? I mean that sincerely - what do you think Israel should do given this current situation? Because I sure as hell don't have a better idea than "try to destroy Hamas before they kill me".
- invalidname 3y ago
  Israel tried that. The Hamas blew up (literally) the previous Oslo accord aiming at a Palestinian state. Israel also relaxed restrictions on Gaza and tried to normalize relations with the Hamas. The response was that it doesn't want that. People need to separate the Palestinian people (most of which don't want a conflict) and the Hamas. The Palestinian people are sandwiched between the extremists and Israel. These things can't happen until the Hamas is eliminated which is what Israel is trying to do right now. I'm hopeful that this will end up as a "good thing" for the Palestinians and result in a Palestinian state.
jacquesm 3y ago
Between killing Rabin and the settlements this isn't going to stop for decades to come unless something changes, and for that to work both sides will need to want to solve it. I don't see that happening, and you seem to think that only Gaza citizens have the power to stop the conflict. But for that to work they'd have to have something to work with and that just isn't happening. De-occupation is clearly not sufficient to allow a nation state to be established, it needs a lot more security than that. That 6 to 8% of the entire adult male population makes it to Hamas (a figure which I can't verify but it sounds entirely believable) is a reflection of how little people in Gaza have to live for.
- edanm 3y ago
  I think it's true, to some extent, that only Gazans have the power to stop the conflict. (I say Gazans and not Gaza citizen, because I think it's Hamas that has the power, not the actual citizens, which is part of the reason we're in this mess.) Israel does a lot of bad things, like the settlements in the West Bank. No question about that. But if Israel were to stop with those tomorrow, I honestly don't think it will make a difference. See e.g. what Israel did with Gaza - it forcibly removed its own citizens, left Gaza entirely, and what we got in return was Hamas. On the other hand, if the Palestinians agreed to a peace treaty whereby they get some land and give up their right to destroy all of Israel, the war would be over. Period. This was offered to the Palestinians several times, and they refused several times. I'm not saying Israel is faultless, far from it. But at the end of the day, Israel is in a situation where the other side wants something that Israel can't agree to - they want Israel gone. That's the heart of this conflict and something you just can't negotiate around.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Agreed, but: Israel is losing support all over the world because of the settlements and that in turn can be used by the Palestinians (and actually the rest of the Arab world) to claim they are justified in doing whatever they do. You can't effectively point at others while you are doing stuff yourself.
    - 3y ago

enterprise_cog 3y ago

What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path.

ovao 3y ago
Would you argue that the Hamas attack against Israeli non-military citizens on October 7th was an attempt by Palestinians to normalize relations?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Would it be asking too much for you to argue in good faith? That would stop the discussion from derailing. If you can't then maybe don't comment at all?
  - ovao 3y ago
    I didn’t make an argument; I posed a question to the parent.
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  The State of Israel welcomed the attack. You would have to be an utter idiot to believe otherwise given how strong their surveillance apparatus is and the type of equipment it took to break through the barrier.
  - edistra 3y ago
    Do you have any legit source to support that claim ? It's really surprising indeed that they were not aware of the attack and that they could not defend their settlements. But that could also be explained by thinking themselves untouchable, leading now to an overreaction to hide their responsibility in this failure to protect their citizens.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      I don't think there is a legit source to support that claim. But, there is some precedent, the Israeli hawks need Hamas as much as Hamas needs them and in the past they have actually propped up Hamas because they couldn't stomach the likes of Abbas who might be able to successfully establish a Palestinian state. This whole conflict is kept alive by stupidity like that (and the continued settlement program, which is effectively an unofficial way to keep expanding Israel without directly being as accountable).
    - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
      There's plenty of circumstantial evidence to support this. Somehow Israel, which has one of the best spy programs on the globe, completely missed any and all planning of Hamas forces to... drive a tractor into a fence for several hours.... but they're perfectly capable of coming up with calls from Hamas militants after the fact. And their utterly superior military force was somehow unable to stop this supposed massacre for hours after it had begun? There's being drunk on kool-aid and then there's snorting the powder straight out of the package. And Hamas, which launched 36K projectiles from 2001 to 2023 at Israel and managed to kill less than 100 people, magically was able to kill 1400 people in no time flat, and just trust them because they're Israel. Hamas is able to list the names and ages and localities of every single person that Israel slaughters, but Israel somehow doesn't have the advanced capabilities to do the same. It's an awful funny coincidence that Netanyahu, who had been under political and prosecutorial pressure, suddenly and magically found himself a new conflict to embroil himself in so that he could take additional powers for himself.
petertodd 3y ago
> What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path. Hamas slaughtered over a thousand Jewish civilians three weeks ago. They've been continuously launching rockets into Israel since then. They have been able to do that because Israel had chosen to partially normalize relations, eg by allowing trucks to import goods into Gaza, allowing the import of concrete and other building supplies, and allowing Gazan's to enter Israel to work. The latter is particularly atrocious, as it appears that many of those cross-border workers used their access to Israel to help Hamas massacre Israeli civilians. Obviously, normalizing relations prior to Hamas taking steps to reject violence comes at enormous risk. If Israel had instead decided against taking steps to normalize relations with Gaza, 1400 and counting Israeli's would probably still be alive today.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  I don't particularly value an Israeli life any higher than I do a Palestinian one. Palestinians have died in larger numbers, just not as suddenly and that's what makes the difference in terms of the response but dead is dead, no matter whether you're the statistic of the day or a victim in a large scale attack. Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution you have to work really hard to not sink to the level of your attacker - or even lower. Note that Israel has zero reasons to keep settling more and more ground and bulldozing more Palestinian homes and that as long as that keeps happening and they overreact to various attacks this conflict will simply never end. And that's exactly how Hamas and the Hawks want it, because it legitimizes their existence, they relish the conflict.
  - edanm 3y ago
    First, I want to emphatically agree - an Israeli life isn't worth any more than a Palestinian life. > Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution I want to argue against your framing here, because that is not how Israelis see things. At least the normal ones don't think of it as "striking back in retribution" or anything like that. The thing is, Hamas has declared war on Israel. They slaughtered 1400 people, took hostages, and are actively and continually firing rockets at Israel. There's been 3 weeks of rocket attacks. Luckily Israel has lots of defensive capabilities to block these kinds of attacks, but they are actively waging a war in the hopes of killing as many Israelis as possible. So the situation from Israel's perspective is - we are bordering a semi-state, whose government is intent on destroying Israel, have shown themselves capable of killing many Israelis, and is continuing to wage war. What should Israel do? The only response that most Israelis come to, which is what any other country in the world would do when faced with a similar situation, is to attack the enemy country until it doesn't have the capability to hurt you anymore. It's not some kind of "tit for tat" terrorist attack. It's literally a bordering country intent on destroying you and actively trying to do so. And btw, people seem to think that Israel is all-powerful or something here and can just choose whatever response it wants - but several other countries are actively threatening to join the war and attack Israel all at once. It's as if Mexico invaded the States, killed thousands of Americans, was firing rockets at American cities, and Canada was threatening to join in the war. What kind of response would make sense in this context? I mean that sincerely - what do you think Israel should do given this current situation? Because I sure as hell don't have a better idea than "try to destroy Hamas before they kill me".
invalidname 3y ago
Israel tried that. The Hamas blew up (literally) the previous Oslo accord aiming at a Palestinian state. Israel also relaxed restrictions on Gaza and tried to normalize relations with the Hamas. The response was that it doesn't want that. People need to separate the Palestinian people (most of which don't want a conflict) and the Hamas. The Palestinian people are sandwiched between the extremists and Israel. These things can't happen until the Hamas is eliminated which is what Israel is trying to do right now. I'm hopeful that this will end up as a "good thing" for the Palestinians and result in a Palestinian state.

jacquesm 3y ago

Between killing Rabin and the settlements this isn't going to stop for decades to come unless something changes, and for that to work both sides will need to want to solve it. I don't see that happening, and you seem to think that only Gaza citizens have the power to stop the conflict. But for that to work they'd have to have something to work with and that just isn't happening. De-occupation is clearly not sufficient to allow a nation state to be established, it needs a lot more security than that. That 6 to 8% of the entire adult male population makes it to Hamas (a figure which I can't verify but it sounds entirely believable) is a reflection of how little people in Gaza have to live for.

edanm 3y ago
I think it's true, to some extent, that only Gazans have the power to stop the conflict. (I say Gazans and not Gaza citizen, because I think it's Hamas that has the power, not the actual citizens, which is part of the reason we're in this mess.) Israel does a lot of bad things, like the settlements in the West Bank. No question about that. But if Israel were to stop with those tomorrow, I honestly don't think it will make a difference. See e.g. what Israel did with Gaza - it forcibly removed its own citizens, left Gaza entirely, and what we got in return was Hamas. On the other hand, if the Palestinians agreed to a peace treaty whereby they get some land and give up their right to destroy all of Israel, the war would be over. Period. This was offered to the Palestinians several times, and they refused several times. I'm not saying Israel is faultless, far from it. But at the end of the day, Israel is in a situation where the other side wants something that Israel can't agree to - they want Israel gone. That's the heart of this conflict and something you just can't negotiate around.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Agreed, but: Israel is losing support all over the world because of the settlements and that in turn can be used by the Palestinians (and actually the rest of the Arab world) to claim they are justified in doing whatever they do. You can't effectively point at others while you are doing stuff yourself.
  - 3y ago