7 ms·

I would suggest that if you are allowed a fan that sucks air from under the car then you can easily achieve pretty much any acceleration. The reason F1 cars do

I would suggest that if you are allowed a fan that sucks air from under the car then you can easily achieve pretty much any acceleration. The reason F1 cars do not do this is because suction is limited in F1 for very specific reasons and it goes back to the fatal crash of Ayrton Senna. Basically, a car that relies too much on suction is unsafe to drive because any failure can throw the car out of track with fatal consequences. Suction is sensitive to distance between the car and the track. It is also sensitive to chasis being in good shape. If a car goes over some object on the track that unsticks the car from the ground and/or damages chasis, the car will instantly lose the suction and also any chance of stopping. Another problem with suction is that it poses enormous force on shock absorbers keeping them hard and compressed. Once you allow unlimited suction the next real limitation for acceleration is ability for the human driver to withstand acceleration.

Johnythree 3y ago
You are confusing the function of springs and shock absorbers. Yes, springs can be compressed, but that is their basic function. Shock absorbers on the other hand should be configured so that they never reach the end of travel. You seem to be saying that the down pressure causes the suspension to be compressed, but the basic design must cope with that, either by fitting heavier springs, or using a self-leveling system.
reactor4 3y ago
Ground effect was used in F1 between 1978 and 1982. Ayrton Senna died in 1994.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  To clarify this, active ground effect was forbidden in 1982. What is the thing the GP is talking about. The prohibition has no relation to Senna, but it was because of another accident. Ground effect in general has been in use since the F1 cars first changed shape, and is used everywhere, not only on race cars.
- onetimeuse92304 3y ago
  Senna died when his car lost downforce due to mechanical fault.
  - durag 3y ago
    No, he died because of a steering column failure, not a loss of downforce. Edit: I read up some more and it seems that noone really knows why he lost control. My previous impression was that the steering column broke mid-corner causing him to crash into the wall. This is from an interview with Adrian Newey who designed the car: Newey admits that he has considered the causes of the crash repeatedly over the past 17 years. "If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher's following car, the car didn't understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it."
    - justin66 3y ago
      Yes, but strictly speaking he died because he was hit in the head with a wheel. The halo, wheel tethers, and probably a few other modern things would have improved his odds.
      - Grazester 3y ago
        I was indeed thinking, didn't debris hit him in the head. I guess there wouldn't have been debris without the crash
- pmontra 3y ago
  Some form of ground effect has been in use in every single year since then. There are aerodynamic devices that channel air below the car, that keep confined there with vortices running along the car, that extract the air from behind. They even removed some limitations at the beginning of 2022 and they can run with a flat bottom now.
  - aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
    not sure why the mad votes exactly to my knowledge banning ground effect devices and geometries has been a decades long game of cat and mouse which at virtually no point has resulted in an on the track reality of equal footing due to a complete absence of positive traction from active or passive ground effect features on all cars just about every race I've ever watched has featured that year's aero controversy front and center in the commentary F1 has been as much about engineers racing the rules as drivers racing the cars as long as I've been watching
    - pmontra 3y ago
      Well, they are prototypes. Every car is different so Formula 1 has always been more about the car than about the driver, despite the hype being more about drivers. A good driver can get closer to the limit of the car than a worse one, that's right. However if the limit of another car is 1 second better, even with an average driver that faster car is going to win against the slower one with the good driver. So to win titles: build a very good car, hire a good driver (which will be more than happy to come), possibly win driving with one arm like Schumacher, Hamilton and Verstappen did in many of the last 20 years. But even without a star you're going to win anyway if the car is good enough. Williams won with Damon Hill, Ferrari almost won with Irvine in 1999 when Schumacher missed many races for injury.
HPsquared 3y ago
On the other hand, absolutely unlimited performance - perhaps without a human driver - racecars would be pretty cool to watch. Extreme speed! Grandstands etc would need to be extra secure though due to the higher speeds.
- bane 3y ago
  In the works! https://techxplore.com/news/2022-01-self-driving-cars-history-ces.html https://techxplore.com/news/2022-01-self-driving-cars-histor...
- simion314 3y ago
  >On the other hand, absolutely unlimited performance - perhaps without a human driver - racecars would be pretty cool to watch. I bet nobody will watch it, when I was watching F1 it was already boring and many rules were added to reduce speeds and make it easier to over take, otherwise the order they start will be the order they will finish.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    I guess you're right, the drama and competition is what draws viewers. An unlimited time-trial would still be pretty cool to watch, but a lot more niche.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    I honestly think that no one but a programmer would ever say watching that would be cool. I have no idea what the point would even be, but then again, I don't get video game contests either.
- neuralRiot 3y ago
  Want to see hyper-fast races? Check RC car races.
- yetihehe 3y ago
  > Grandstands etc would need to be extra secure though due to the higher speeds. So maybe then also get rid of spectators?
yodelshady 3y ago
> I would suggest that if you are allowed a fan that sucks air from under the car then you can easily achieve pretty much any acceleration. Or if you point the fan backwards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJz5zkIiUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJz5zkIiUQ
dijit 3y ago
See also: the "Fan Car" that was not banned but would have been; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOxlKfcSs5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOxlKfcSs5o
Pat_Murph 3y ago
The official cause of Senna's crash was due to a failure of the steering column that was modified before the race. Not du to loss downforce.
- lallysingh 3y ago
  Adrian Newey, the man who designed the car Senna was driving, gave this quote: ” The honest truth is that no one will ever know exactly what happened. There’s no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor. However, all the evidence suggests the car did not go off the track as a result of steering column failure… If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher’s following car, the car didn’t understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. https://www.formulanerds.com/features/the-story-and-conspiracy-surrounding-the-death-of-ayrton-senna-27-years-on/ https://www.formulanerds.com/features/the-story-and-conspira... There's still debate on this.
  - Pat_Murph 3y ago
    There is a very interesting video and I think it's from the official investigation. It seems to show that the steering broke before the corner and Senna tried to turn but he just kept going streight. https://youtu.be/UfgadmP5PzY?si=CjSvAw9aGXb7uU0_ https://youtu.be/UfgadmP5PzY?si=CjSvAw9aGXb7uU0_
- neuralRiot 3y ago
  Yes, i doubt “ground vacuum effect” had anything to do with the accident as it wasn’t as popular in the 90’s. For more info on “vacuum cars” check: https://motorsportexplained.com/ground-effect-f1/ https://motorsportexplained.com/ground-effect-f1/
justin66 3y ago
> The reason F1 cars do not do this is because suction is limited in F1 for very specific reasons and it goes back to the fatal crash of Ayrton Senna. That's just completely wrong.
pintxo 3y ago
If you need a video for that: https://youtu.be/e21ZjwZGjiQ?si=r_oHvxYhiWvg7cRa https://youtu.be/e21ZjwZGjiQ?si=r_oHvxYhiWvg7cRa

Johnythree 3y ago

You are confusing the function of springs and shock absorbers. Yes, springs can be compressed, but that is their basic function. Shock absorbers on the other hand should be configured so that they never reach the end of travel. You seem to be saying that the down pressure causes the suspension to be compressed, but the basic design must cope with that, either by fitting heavier springs, or using a self-leveling system.

reactor4 3y ago

Ground effect was used in F1 between 1978 and 1982. Ayrton Senna died in 1994.

marcosdumay 3y ago
To clarify this, active ground effect was forbidden in 1982. What is the thing the GP is talking about. The prohibition has no relation to Senna, but it was because of another accident. Ground effect in general has been in use since the F1 cars first changed shape, and is used everywhere, not only on race cars.
onetimeuse92304 3y ago
Senna died when his car lost downforce due to mechanical fault.
- durag 3y ago
  No, he died because of a steering column failure, not a loss of downforce. Edit: I read up some more and it seems that noone really knows why he lost control. My previous impression was that the steering column broke mid-corner causing him to crash into the wall. This is from an interview with Adrian Newey who designed the car: Newey admits that he has considered the causes of the crash repeatedly over the past 17 years. "If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher's following car, the car didn't understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it."
  - justin66 3y ago
    Yes, but strictly speaking he died because he was hit in the head with a wheel. The halo, wheel tethers, and probably a few other modern things would have improved his odds.
    - Grazester 3y ago
      I was indeed thinking, didn't debris hit him in the head. I guess there wouldn't have been debris without the crash
pmontra 3y ago
Some form of ground effect has been in use in every single year since then. There are aerodynamic devices that channel air below the car, that keep confined there with vortices running along the car, that extract the air from behind. They even removed some limitations at the beginning of 2022 and they can run with a flat bottom now.
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y ago
  not sure why the mad votes exactly to my knowledge banning ground effect devices and geometries has been a decades long game of cat and mouse which at virtually no point has resulted in an on the track reality of equal footing due to a complete absence of positive traction from active or passive ground effect features on all cars just about every race I've ever watched has featured that year's aero controversy front and center in the commentary F1 has been as much about engineers racing the rules as drivers racing the cars as long as I've been watching
  - pmontra 3y ago
    Well, they are prototypes. Every car is different so Formula 1 has always been more about the car than about the driver, despite the hype being more about drivers. A good driver can get closer to the limit of the car than a worse one, that's right. However if the limit of another car is 1 second better, even with an average driver that faster car is going to win against the slower one with the good driver. So to win titles: build a very good car, hire a good driver (which will be more than happy to come), possibly win driving with one arm like Schumacher, Hamilton and Verstappen did in many of the last 20 years. But even without a star you're going to win anyway if the car is good enough. Williams won with Damon Hill, Ferrari almost won with Irvine in 1999 when Schumacher missed many races for injury.

HPsquared 3y ago

On the other hand, absolutely unlimited performance - perhaps without a human driver - racecars would be pretty cool to watch. Extreme speed! Grandstands etc would need to be extra secure though due to the higher speeds.

bane 3y ago
In the works! https://techxplore.com/news/2022-01-self-driving-cars-history-ces.html https://techxplore.com/news/2022-01-self-driving-cars-histor...
simion314 3y ago
>On the other hand, absolutely unlimited performance - perhaps without a human driver - racecars would be pretty cool to watch. I bet nobody will watch it, when I was watching F1 it was already boring and many rules were added to reduce speeds and make it easier to over take, otherwise the order they start will be the order they will finish.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  I guess you're right, the drama and competition is what draws viewers. An unlimited time-trial would still be pretty cool to watch, but a lot more niche.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  I honestly think that no one but a programmer would ever say watching that would be cool. I have no idea what the point would even be, but then again, I don't get video game contests either.
neuralRiot 3y ago
Want to see hyper-fast races? Check RC car races.
yetihehe 3y ago
> Grandstands etc would need to be extra secure though due to the higher speeds. So maybe then also get rid of spectators?

yodelshady 3y ago

> I would suggest that if you are allowed a fan that sucks air from under the car then you can easily achieve pretty much any acceleration. Or if you point the fan backwards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJz5zkIiUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJz5zkIiUQ

dijit 3y ago

See also: the "Fan Car" that was not banned but would have been; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOxlKfcSs5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOxlKfcSs5o

Pat_Murph 3y ago

The official cause of Senna's crash was due to a failure of the steering column that was modified before the race. Not du to loss downforce.

lallysingh 3y ago
Adrian Newey, the man who designed the car Senna was driving, gave this quote: ” The honest truth is that no one will ever know exactly what happened. There’s no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor. However, all the evidence suggests the car did not go off the track as a result of steering column failure… If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher’s following car, the car didn’t understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. https://www.formulanerds.com/features/the-story-and-conspiracy-surrounding-the-death-of-ayrton-senna-27-years-on/ https://www.formulanerds.com/features/the-story-and-conspira... There's still debate on this.
- Pat_Murph 3y ago
  There is a very interesting video and I think it's from the official investigation. It seems to show that the steering broke before the corner and Senna tried to turn but he just kept going streight. https://youtu.be/UfgadmP5PzY?si=CjSvAw9aGXb7uU0_ https://youtu.be/UfgadmP5PzY?si=CjSvAw9aGXb7uU0_
neuralRiot 3y ago
Yes, i doubt “ground vacuum effect” had anything to do with the accident as it wasn’t as popular in the 90’s. For more info on “vacuum cars” check: https://motorsportexplained.com/ground-effect-f1/ https://motorsportexplained.com/ground-effect-f1/

justin66 3y ago

> The reason F1 cars do not do this is because suction is limited in F1 for very specific reasons and it goes back to the fatal crash of Ayrton Senna. That's just completely wrong.

pintxo 3y ago

If you need a video for that: https://youtu.be/e21ZjwZGjiQ?si=r_oHvxYhiWvg7cRa https://youtu.be/e21ZjwZGjiQ?si=r_oHvxYhiWvg7cRa