8 ms·

There are enough people who still identify as Yugoslavs in some way that articles can be written about this as a thing. However, as one who speaks BCMS and Alba

There are enough people who still identify as Yugoslavs in some way that articles can be written about this as a thing. However, as one who speaks BCMS and Albanian and travels the region for months each year talking with random people about these things, my own experience is that is merely a subculture, not anything representative. A lot of people going abroad in the 1990s, or as gastarbeiter before that, were coming from Bosnia, the Sanjak, or Kosovo and they understandably are loath to identify with a state they saw as dominated by the Serbs, who committed atrocities against them. For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project in general. As for Croatia, significant opposition to Yugoslavia began already by the early 1970s and it only got worse after the 1991 war.

keiferski 3y ago
For sure, it’s not representative or a majority opinion, but there are enough people for it to “be a thing.” Especially for people that had mixed families.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  Article describing Yugonostalgia for anyone interested to read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved-each-other-rise-yugonostalgia-tito https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved...
medo-bear 3y ago
> However, as one who speaks BCMS The languages spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro (this order is by population size) are one and the same language. It is a southern slavic language, which is what the term yugoslav means. That it is not used is solely due to political correctness. God forbid that slavs should think they are one and the same, instead of constantly being at war with one another > For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project Albanians were actually a small minority in Yugolslavia as a whole. The country was 90+% slavic. On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. Im certain they had more freedom and a better life than in Enver Hoxha's Albania. Also if it was not for socialist Yugoslavia, Kosovo would have just been, and hence remained, a region in a centrally governed Serbia. As regards opposotion to Yugoslavia, it is actually more correct to say that Yugoslavia was opposed by nationalists of all ethnic groups it contained, including the Serbs, Croats, Muslims (as Bosniaks called themselves during those times and some period after), Slovenians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, and of course Albanians. Even though people mainly know about Greater Serbia, each of these groups wanted (wants?) a Greater <insert your nat. here>, including the Albanians
- sokols 3y ago
  > On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. It lasted for merely 15 years, from 1974 till 1989 when Milosevic and his clique brutally removed it. This autonomy was always a thorn in the eye of the serbian establishment and they never stopped their efforts to undermine it, which they succeeded in 1989.
  - wheelerof4te 3y ago
    Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Please, try to promote Texas independance from USA and see how that goes.
    - sokols 3y ago
      > Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Kosovo War happened later, not during the above mentioned period.
      - wheelerof4te 3y ago
        Yes, it happened after the initial response by Serbian anti-terrorist groups. Then, West became involved and Clinton wanted something to distract from his little raping scandal at home. So, they decided to bomb a country fighting foreign-backed terrorists on its soil.
        OfSanguineFire 3y ago
        The Clinton scandal at the time of the bombing of Serbia was about a consensual relationship (his two-year extramarital affair with Monica Lewinsky). While Clinton did have other sex scandals, those came well before 1999. Your writing about a “little raping scandal” suggests you do not have a good knowledge of this history and your posts on the subject cannot be taken seriously.
malermeister 3y ago
I also speak Serbo-Croatian and travelled the Balkans extensively. I think to call it just a subculture is a bit harsh. There's definitely a significant chunk of the population that does miss Yugoslavia and bratstvo i jedinstvo. In my experience, the sentiment is actually strongest in Bosnia, which makes sense, as it is the most mixed of the successor states and also the one that suffered the most from petty nationalism. Personally, I also think that Yugoslavia was a good idea that was killed by right wing gangsters. We're all much more similar than we're different and we should focus on that instead of on what Freud called the narcissism of small differences. If Munich and Berlin can be in the same country, why can't Zagreb and Belgrade? We speak the same language (even tho some don't want to admit it - I usually use "po našu" when referring to the language, meaning "in our language", thus avoiding the nationalist names and pettiness), eat mostly the same foods, have similar mentalities etc. I agree with you on the ethnic Albanians though - they never made sense in Yugoslavia, the state of the South Slavs. Kosovo should be part of Albania and the Serbs need to shut up about it already.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Interesting that your experience says Bosnia is the most yugonostalgic. The most batshit crazy Greater Serbia talk I hear, even to the point where Yugoslavia is viewed as an anti-Serb mistake, is always among older men in villages in the Republika Srpska. They outdo their peers over in Serbia, and they might even be ahead of their coethnics in northern Kosovo. In the Federation, Muslims often express happiness at being independent, they just wish their independent state didn’t have such a dysfunctional system. I have seldom interacted with Croatians in the Federation, though. My own experience has found that ethnic Macedonians are the most yugonostalgic, which might be understandable since 1) they had linguistic autonomy outside the acrimonious quarrel over "Serbo-Croatian", and 2) they avoided the wars. But all this is anecdotal and I can see how others might have very divergent experiences.
  - emptyfile 3y ago
    [dead]
  - malermeister 3y ago
slx87 3y ago
Whenever state was dominated by Serbs is debatable, given that Tito was Croat. I would argue that communism did us all great deal of damage and that Yugoslavia was mistake. But implying that Serbs committed atrocities against other people during peaceful times is simply not true. Once civil war started, atrocities were committed by all sides, not just Serbs. I have lost family members in war and I have friends who as kids had to escape from Sarajevo in early days of war to save their they lives (while their only crime was being born as Serbs). Unfortunately, today everything is presented in simple black/white, good vs bad guys way without ever scratching under the surface.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  > But implying that Serbs committed atrocities My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia. This is a separate issue from who committed what, and your trying to bring up that debate is not helpful to this discussion.
  - dotemacs 3y ago
    > My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia I was driven by an Albanian taxi driver abroad, who loves ethnonationalist Albanian politician Albin Kurti, but at the same time believed that Yugoslavia was amazing and that he wished that it never split. I can use many examples like that that can hinder your NATO flavoured narrative. It goes both ways.
  - jakupovic 3y ago
    Serbs did commit atrocities and ethnic cleansing Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]
Keyframe 3y ago
Unpopular opinion maybe, but albanians (whether from Albania or Kosovo) weren't ever really a part of Yugoslavia. "They" were always alien to the prevailing culture and a minority.
- ngrost24 3y ago
  -a Albanians from Albania have nothing to do with Yugoslavia, it's like saying Italians from italy weren't ever really a part of France. -b From the comments it looks like Albanians from Kosovo weren't the only ones who didn't like the government of Yugoslavia from that period. If the government doesn't foster inclusion and cooperation, then fractures happen, whether you're "part" of the prevailing culture or not. Albanians were not a minority in Kosovo, the same way that Slovenes are not a minority in Slovenia (and I think you'll agree that the size of the population is similar).
  - Keyframe 3y ago
    > -a Albanians from Albania have nothing to do with Yugoslavia, it's like saying Italians from italy weren't ever really a part of France. No, not really. More like Italians from New York were never part of USA (they were). Albanians were a minority throughout ex-yu and always showed inclination towards the eagle state, never yu. But you already knew what I was talking about because you rightly said: > Albanians were not a minority in Kosovo which I guess is true (I don't know by heart stats) since it was always considered kind of alien culture to all of the others including Vojvodina; Never integrated, always closer to Albania. However this might be just my perspective from Croatia.
    - ngrost24 3y ago
      > More like Italians from New York were never part of USA (they were). Please re-read my statement that you quoted. Italians from New York is completely different from Albanians from Albania. Albania is a country where the overwhelming majority is Albanian. > Never integrated, always closer to Albania. Whether the Albanian population in ex-Yu showed inclination towards Albania can be argued either way, but I don't see the Albanian population in Macedonia do the same thing (took up arms and fought at the risk of losing their lives for independence). Considering someone alien makes it much easier to segregate, ostracize, denigrate, punish and abuse them. Ask yourself whether the ex-Yu government would have been able to do the things they did to Kosovo if they have called them our brothers (or even called them citizens of Yugoslavia) or if they called them "those Kosovo aliens that don't want to integrate".

keiferski 3y ago

For sure, it’s not representative or a majority opinion, but there are enough people for it to “be a thing.” Especially for people that had mixed families.

NeoTar 3y ago
Article describing Yugonostalgia for anyone interested to read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved-each-other-rise-yugonostalgia-tito https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved...

medo-bear 3y ago

> However, as one who speaks BCMS The languages spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro (this order is by population size) are one and the same language. It is a southern slavic language, which is what the term yugoslav means. That it is not used is solely due to political correctness. God forbid that slavs should think they are one and the same, instead of constantly being at war with one another > For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project Albanians were actually a small minority in Yugolslavia as a whole. The country was 90+% slavic. On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. Im certain they had more freedom and a better life than in Enver Hoxha's Albania. Also if it was not for socialist Yugoslavia, Kosovo would have just been, and hence remained, a region in a centrally governed Serbia. As regards opposotion to Yugoslavia, it is actually more correct to say that Yugoslavia was opposed by nationalists of all ethnic groups it contained, including the Serbs, Croats, Muslims (as Bosniaks called themselves during those times and some period after), Slovenians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, and of course Albanians. Even though people mainly know about Greater Serbia, each of these groups wanted (wants?) a Greater <insert your nat. here>, including the Albanians

sokols 3y ago
> On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. It lasted for merely 15 years, from 1974 till 1989 when Milosevic and his clique brutally removed it. This autonomy was always a thorn in the eye of the serbian establishment and they never stopped their efforts to undermine it, which they succeeded in 1989.
- wheelerof4te 3y ago
  Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Please, try to promote Texas independance from USA and see how that goes.
  - sokols 3y ago
    > Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Kosovo War happened later, not during the above mentioned period.
    - wheelerof4te 3y ago
      Yes, it happened after the initial response by Serbian anti-terrorist groups. Then, West became involved and Clinton wanted something to distract from his little raping scandal at home. So, they decided to bomb a country fighting foreign-backed terrorists on its soil.
      - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
        The Clinton scandal at the time of the bombing of Serbia was about a consensual relationship (his two-year extramarital affair with Monica Lewinsky). While Clinton did have other sex scandals, those came well before 1999. Your writing about a “little raping scandal” suggests you do not have a good knowledge of this history and your posts on the subject cannot be taken seriously.

malermeister 3y ago

I also speak Serbo-Croatian and travelled the Balkans extensively. I think to call it just a subculture is a bit harsh. There's definitely a significant chunk of the population that does miss Yugoslavia and bratstvo i jedinstvo. In my experience, the sentiment is actually strongest in Bosnia, which makes sense, as it is the most mixed of the successor states and also the one that suffered the most from petty nationalism. Personally, I also think that Yugoslavia was a good idea that was killed by right wing gangsters. We're all much more similar than we're different and we should focus on that instead of on what Freud called the narcissism of small differences. If Munich and Berlin can be in the same country, why can't Zagreb and Belgrade? We speak the same language (even tho some don't want to admit it - I usually use "po našu" when referring to the language, meaning "in our language", thus avoiding the nationalist names and pettiness), eat mostly the same foods, have similar mentalities etc. I agree with you on the ethnic Albanians though - they never made sense in Yugoslavia, the state of the South Slavs. Kosovo should be part of Albania and the Serbs need to shut up about it already.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Interesting that your experience says Bosnia is the most yugonostalgic. The most batshit crazy Greater Serbia talk I hear, even to the point where Yugoslavia is viewed as an anti-Serb mistake, is always among older men in villages in the Republika Srpska. They outdo their peers over in Serbia, and they might even be ahead of their coethnics in northern Kosovo. In the Federation, Muslims often express happiness at being independent, they just wish their independent state didn’t have such a dysfunctional system. I have seldom interacted with Croatians in the Federation, though. My own experience has found that ethnic Macedonians are the most yugonostalgic, which might be understandable since 1) they had linguistic autonomy outside the acrimonious quarrel over "Serbo-Croatian", and 2) they avoided the wars. But all this is anecdotal and I can see how others might have very divergent experiences.
- emptyfile 3y ago
  [dead]
- malermeister 3y ago

slx87 3y ago

Whenever state was dominated by Serbs is debatable, given that Tito was Croat. I would argue that communism did us all great deal of damage and that Yugoslavia was mistake. But implying that Serbs committed atrocities against other people during peaceful times is simply not true. Once civil war started, atrocities were committed by all sides, not just Serbs. I have lost family members in war and I have friends who as kids had to escape from Sarajevo in early days of war to save their they lives (while their only crime was being born as Serbs). Unfortunately, today everything is presented in simple black/white, good vs bad guys way without ever scratching under the surface.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> But implying that Serbs committed atrocities My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia. This is a separate issue from who committed what, and your trying to bring up that debate is not helpful to this discussion.
- dotemacs 3y ago
  > My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia I was driven by an Albanian taxi driver abroad, who loves ethnonationalist Albanian politician Albin Kurti, but at the same time believed that Yugoslavia was amazing and that he wished that it never split. I can use many examples like that that can hinder your NATO flavoured narrative. It goes both ways.
- jakupovic 3y ago
  Serbs did commit atrocities and ethnic cleansing Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]

Keyframe 3y ago

Unpopular opinion maybe, but albanians (whether from Albania or Kosovo) weren't ever really a part of Yugoslavia. "They" were always alien to the prevailing culture and a minority.

ngrost24 3y ago
-a Albanians from Albania have nothing to do with Yugoslavia, it's like saying Italians from italy weren't ever really a part of France. -b From the comments it looks like Albanians from Kosovo weren't the only ones who didn't like the government of Yugoslavia from that period. If the government doesn't foster inclusion and cooperation, then fractures happen, whether you're "part" of the prevailing culture or not. Albanians were not a minority in Kosovo, the same way that Slovenes are not a minority in Slovenia (and I think you'll agree that the size of the population is similar).
- Keyframe 3y ago
  > -a Albanians from Albania have nothing to do with Yugoslavia, it's like saying Italians from italy weren't ever really a part of France. No, not really. More like Italians from New York were never part of USA (they were). Albanians were a minority throughout ex-yu and always showed inclination towards the eagle state, never yu. But you already knew what I was talking about because you rightly said: > Albanians were not a minority in Kosovo which I guess is true (I don't know by heart stats) since it was always considered kind of alien culture to all of the others including Vojvodina; Never integrated, always closer to Albania. However this might be just my perspective from Croatia.
  - ngrost24 3y ago
    > More like Italians from New York were never part of USA (they were). Please re-read my statement that you quoted. Italians from New York is completely different from Albanians from Albania. Albania is a country where the overwhelming majority is Albanian. > Never integrated, always closer to Albania. Whether the Albanian population in ex-Yu showed inclination towards Albania can be argued either way, but I don't see the Albanian population in Macedonia do the same thing (took up arms and fought at the risk of losing their lives for independence). Considering someone alien makes it much easier to segregate, ostracize, denigrate, punish and abuse them. Ask yourself whether the ex-Yu government would have been able to do the things they did to Kosovo if they have called them our brothers (or even called them citizens of Yugoslavia) or if they called them "those Kosovo aliens that don't want to integrate".