8 ms·

I’ve spent a lot of time in the Balkans, and one interesting real world equivalent to this domain is that a lot of older ex-Yugoslavians, especially ones that w

I’ve spent a lot of time in the Balkans, and one interesting real world equivalent to this domain is that a lot of older ex-Yugoslavians, especially ones that went abroad in the 90s, still identify themselves primarily as Yugoslavians and not as Serbians, Croats, etc. Maybe a bit of it is nostalgia, but I think a similar thing might happen if America broke up into separate countries. You’d still have a sizable amount of people that identify more as Americans than as Californians/New Yorkers/etc.

SergeAx 3y ago
All ex-Yugoslav republics are speaking the same Serbo-Croatian language, despite calling it Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian etc. Even today, after 20 years of separation, their languages are closer to each other than some South and North Italian dialects. Genetically they are mostly the same population too. Only Albanians in Kosovo and Metohia are exception in both cases. So, technically Bosniaks, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, and Slovenians are South Slavs, or literally Yugo-Slavs.
xtracto 3y ago
> but I think a similar thing might happen if America broke up into separate countries. You’d still have a sizable amount of people that identify more as Americans than as Californians/New Yorkers/etc. And yet, invariably when you meet an American in some other country, and ask him where is he from, he will answer "I'm from California/New York/Alabama/Ohio". Back when I lived in Europe and had a lot of contact with international people, I used to pull the leg when that happened. If an American introduced himself like that, I will introduce myself in a similar way: "I am from Campeche" ... let HIM try to guess what that meant haha.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
There are enough people who still identify as Yugoslavs in some way that articles can be written about this as a thing. However, as one who speaks BCMS and Albanian and travels the region for months each year talking with random people about these things, my own experience is that is merely a subculture, not anything representative. A lot of people going abroad in the 1990s, or as gastarbeiter before that, were coming from Bosnia, the Sanjak, or Kosovo and they understandably are loath to identify with a state they saw as dominated by the Serbs, who committed atrocities against them. For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project in general. As for Croatia, significant opposition to Yugoslavia began already by the early 1970s and it only got worse after the 1991 war.
- keiferski 3y ago
  For sure, it’s not representative or a majority opinion, but there are enough people for it to “be a thing.” Especially for people that had mixed families.
  - NeoTar 3y ago
    Article describing Yugonostalgia for anyone interested to read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved-each-other-rise-yugonostalgia-tito https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved...
- medo-bear 3y ago
  > However, as one who speaks BCMS The languages spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro (this order is by population size) are one and the same language. It is a southern slavic language, which is what the term yugoslav means. That it is not used is solely due to political correctness. God forbid that slavs should think they are one and the same, instead of constantly being at war with one another > For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project Albanians were actually a small minority in Yugolslavia as a whole. The country was 90+% slavic. On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. Im certain they had more freedom and a better life than in Enver Hoxha's Albania. Also if it was not for socialist Yugoslavia, Kosovo would have just been, and hence remained, a region in a centrally governed Serbia. As regards opposotion to Yugoslavia, it is actually more correct to say that Yugoslavia was opposed by nationalists of all ethnic groups it contained, including the Serbs, Croats, Muslims (as Bosniaks called themselves during those times and some period after), Slovenians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, and of course Albanians. Even though people mainly know about Greater Serbia, each of these groups wanted (wants?) a Greater <insert your nat. here>, including the Albanians
  - sokols 3y ago
    > On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. It lasted for merely 15 years, from 1974 till 1989 when Milosevic and his clique brutally removed it. This autonomy was always a thorn in the eye of the serbian establishment and they never stopped their efforts to undermine it, which they succeeded in 1989.
The_Colonel 3y ago
Similar with Czechoslovakia, although it is limited to older people who spent their formative years during that time. Given the American identity is much older than either of these 2 examples and there aren't even these underlying nations like in e. g. Yugoslavia, I'd expect this effect to be way stronger and persistent in America.
asta123 3y ago
Not only nostalgia. Many families from former Yugoslavia don't fit in narrow national identities of new Balkan states. e.g. one parent from Serbia, the other from Croatia. Would be nice to also have some sort of an umbrella nationality like British or American.
INTPenis 3y ago
My parents left inthe 60s and met abroad, had 4 kids, my grandma came out to them in the 80s to help raise the kids. The first time my grandma was supposed to return after the civil war she returned with her yogoslavian passport. They actually had a situation at the border where the border guards had to tell my grandma "I'm sorry madam, but this country no longer exists" :D
- jallasprit 3y ago
  «Mr. Navorski, Krakozhia no longer exists»
- asta123 3y ago
  Know someone who fled Bosnia during 90s to Germany. No more Yugoslavia so this person had a Bosnian passport in Germany. He had a kid in Germany, so his kid had a German passport. His parents fled to Serbia, his dad had a Serbian passport and mum - because of her 'nationality' - Croatian passport. Four members of the same family, same surname, four passports. Made for some interesting border crossings when they travelled together.
froggit 3y ago
I would continue to identify myself as "American" if USA broke up and each state became it's own country regardless of whether I went abroad prior to that or any other situation of that sort. Some states that cause residents to have conversations like this: Me: "I'm American. Freedom flavored." (don't make assumptions, anyone from North or South America is American) You: "Cool, which state?" Me: "A united state!" You: "What in the actual fuck? They're all united. What specific state do you reside in and/or originate from? (Smartass...)" Me: "Look... If you sweat all the small shit you're gonna die from a heart attack in your 50s." You: "Holy shit... So... Florida?" Me: "Worse." You: "Ah... Question retracted."
- freeflight 3y ago
  This ignores that such a breaking up of the US would very likely be based on similar dynamics as "balkanizations" that see smaller groups put their own identidy above that of the bigger group. Sentiments that will be reinforced during a civil war when these groups keep trading violence and atrocities with each other, that creates a lot of bad blood and tends to make people identify in ways that differentiate them from "the enemy". Not even Americans are immune to that, it's an issue latent to this day whenever state rights vs federal government comes up.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    It's already happened to some extent but with virtual states - Dem & Rep.
resonious 3y ago
This kind of thing happens with language too. Areas which historically had a lot of immigration sometimes end up with immigrant communities that still speak "the old way". I know some Brazilians of Japanese descent who've moved "back to" Japan. They take Japanese language lessons and the instructors always know to tell these folks "don't talk like your parents/grandparents", since the lingo on the mainland has shifted significantly. I've also heard the rumor that this is why the US and UK speak differently, and that the US is actually how Britain used to sound, but I've also seen people say it's BS.
- BerislavLopac 3y ago
  It's not a rumour, it's a linguistic fact. It's not exactly the same, as the American English shifted as well -- but many obvious differences, like rhoticism, used to be a norm in the UK as well. In fact, they are still very present in some British accents (just remember the stereotypical Scottish accent), but have changed in "official" accents like RP.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    The rumor the OP mentions that often gets dismissed as bullshit, might be the one that “in a valley in West Virginia/on an island off the Eastern seaboard, people still speak Elizabethan English!”. And that irks people who are knowledgeable because, as you state, American English is a mix of some archaisms along with boatloads of innovations of its own.
  - resonious 3y ago
    What's the evidence? I've seen people go back and forth about it, but never seen any actual convincing arguments.
    - BerislavLopac 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoticity_in_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoticity_in_English
hahamaster 3y ago
a lot of older ex-Yugoslavians Hm, more like "some", probably "very few", definitely not "a lot." In my experience these people are from very mixed families, for example: has a Muslim mum, Slovak dad who was a Yugoslav communist bureaucrat, born in Belgrade, married to a Slovenian army man, lives in Vienna and is 75 years old. Everyone else finds one branch of their ethnic composition to identify with.
mmtml 3y ago
I never understood the thing in the US to call yourselves "Americans", there's a whole continent of Americans.
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago
  I agree. This is why my circle of friends call each other 'Yankees'
- yreg 3y ago
  How do you call your countrymen?
  - wink 3y ago
    It should be USofAians, of course.
- foinker 3y ago
  I'm sure you understand it perfectly as it's been commonly used this way for a couple of centuries now.
gitanovic 3y ago
What's the name of the continent where "America" is? :D From a European perspective, American means from the continent America, and not specifically from the US. To me a Brazilian is as much American as a US citizen.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's only in English and Japanese that "America" and "American" mean "the US" and "someone from the US". Everyone in Latin America also agrees that "americano" is the demonym for the continent.
- whyoh 3y ago
  >From a European perspective, American means from the continent America, and not specifically from the US. I don't think this is true for most of Europe. For at least three different EU countries that I lived in, America and American is used exclusively for "the US" and "person from the US". "Person from Mexico" and "person from Brazil" would be Mexican and Brazilian, not American. And geographically, the continents are North America and South America, so North Americans and South Americans is used too, in that context. But I don't think I've ever heard Americans to refer to both North and South Americans as a group of people.
  - yreg 3y ago
    Yep, I'm from central Europe and we would call Canadian a North-American, but not American. I get the argument against it, but this is how the language is used.
- dudul 3y ago
  I'm European and to me American means from the USA.
- samirelanduk 3y ago
  In the UK, "America" always refers to the USA. North America and South America together are called "The Americas", never "America". It may be different in continental languages.
wink 3y ago
My sample size is pretty small but I've heard Croatians in Germany the 90s identify themselves as much as Croatians than as Yugoslavians, at least to my recollections, was a kid then.
jakupovic 3y ago
This is BS and sold to outsiders. "Ne našima". People born there know what happened and who did what. Just a little excerpt from Wiki Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]
- mirkules 3y ago
  I see so much being cited from Wikipedia, and that is not a reliable source. One only has to look at an article in different languages, clearly authored by different sets of people. For example, if you look up "Kosovo", the English version states "Kosovo ... is a country in Southeast Europe with partial diplomatic recognition" whereas the one in Serbian states (which I will translate): "Република Косово је званични назив једнострано проглашене државе на територији Републике Србије, противно Уставу Србије.[5] Према Резолуцији 1244 Савета безбедности УН цела територија Косова и Метохије, правно гледано, налази се у саставу Србије док не буде постигнуто коначно решење" translated as: "Kosovo is a formal name for a one-sidedly declared country on the territory of Republic of Serbia, to the objection of Serbia. According to the resolution 1244 from the Security Council of the UN, the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija, in terms of the law, belongs to Serbia until a final resolution is reached." Wikipedia is essentially a he-said/she-said website on politically charged matters, and I really wish people would stop treating it as the source of truth.
  - jakupovic 3y ago
    Please look up the term "ethnic cleansing" where it originated and the parties involved. I'll save you a bit of time, term ethnic cleansing was coined during Bosnian Civil War and is used to describe forceful removal of ethnic population through violent means think murder at concentration camp scale. Serbs ethnically cleansed Bosnians during Bosnian War. To save you even more time. I don't need Wikipedia to tell me anything about Bosnian War, but people here need sources. You coming in and saying Wikipedia is not a reliable source without citing anything makes you uninformed at best.

SergeAx 3y ago

All ex-Yugoslav republics are speaking the same Serbo-Croatian language, despite calling it Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian etc. Even today, after 20 years of separation, their languages are closer to each other than some South and North Italian dialects. Genetically they are mostly the same population too. Only Albanians in Kosovo and Metohia are exception in both cases. So, technically Bosniaks, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, and Slovenians are South Slavs, or literally Yugo-Slavs.

xtracto 3y ago

> but I think a similar thing might happen if America broke up into separate countries. You’d still have a sizable amount of people that identify more as Americans than as Californians/New Yorkers/etc. And yet, invariably when you meet an American in some other country, and ask him where is he from, he will answer "I'm from California/New York/Alabama/Ohio". Back when I lived in Europe and had a lot of contact with international people, I used to pull the leg when that happened. If an American introduced himself like that, I will introduce myself in a similar way: "I am from Campeche" ... let HIM try to guess what that meant haha.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

There are enough people who still identify as Yugoslavs in some way that articles can be written about this as a thing. However, as one who speaks BCMS and Albanian and travels the region for months each year talking with random people about these things, my own experience is that is merely a subculture, not anything representative. A lot of people going abroad in the 1990s, or as gastarbeiter before that, were coming from Bosnia, the Sanjak, or Kosovo and they understandably are loath to identify with a state they saw as dominated by the Serbs, who committed atrocities against them. For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project in general. As for Croatia, significant opposition to Yugoslavia began already by the early 1970s and it only got worse after the 1991 war.

keiferski 3y ago
For sure, it’s not representative or a majority opinion, but there are enough people for it to “be a thing.” Especially for people that had mixed families.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  Article describing Yugonostalgia for anyone interested to read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved-each-other-rise-yugonostalgia-tito https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/everyone-loved...
medo-bear 3y ago
> However, as one who speaks BCMS The languages spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro (this order is by population size) are one and the same language. It is a southern slavic language, which is what the term yugoslav means. That it is not used is solely due to political correctness. God forbid that slavs should think they are one and the same, instead of constantly being at war with one another > For Albanian speakers, Yugoslavia was a Slav-dominated project Albanians were actually a small minority in Yugolslavia as a whole. The country was 90+% slavic. On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. Im certain they had more freedom and a better life than in Enver Hoxha's Albania. Also if it was not for socialist Yugoslavia, Kosovo would have just been, and hence remained, a region in a centrally governed Serbia. As regards opposotion to Yugoslavia, it is actually more correct to say that Yugoslavia was opposed by nationalists of all ethnic groups it contained, including the Serbs, Croats, Muslims (as Bosniaks called themselves during those times and some period after), Slovenians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, and of course Albanians. Even though people mainly know about Greater Serbia, each of these groups wanted (wants?) a Greater <insert your nat. here>, including the Albanians
- sokols 3y ago
  > On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. It lasted for merely 15 years, from 1974 till 1989 when Milosevic and his clique brutally removed it. This autonomy was always a thorn in the eye of the serbian establishment and they never stopped their efforts to undermine it, which they succeeded in 1989.

The_Colonel 3y ago

Similar with Czechoslovakia, although it is limited to older people who spent their formative years during that time. Given the American identity is much older than either of these 2 examples and there aren't even these underlying nations like in e. g. Yugoslavia, I'd expect this effect to be way stronger and persistent in America.

asta123 3y ago

Not only nostalgia. Many families from former Yugoslavia don't fit in narrow national identities of new Balkan states. e.g. one parent from Serbia, the other from Croatia. Would be nice to also have some sort of an umbrella nationality like British or American.

INTPenis 3y ago

My parents left inthe 60s and met abroad, had 4 kids, my grandma came out to them in the 80s to help raise the kids. The first time my grandma was supposed to return after the civil war she returned with her yogoslavian passport. They actually had a situation at the border where the border guards had to tell my grandma "I'm sorry madam, but this country no longer exists" :D

jallasprit 3y ago
«Mr. Navorski, Krakozhia no longer exists»
asta123 3y ago
Know someone who fled Bosnia during 90s to Germany. No more Yugoslavia so this person had a Bosnian passport in Germany. He had a kid in Germany, so his kid had a German passport. His parents fled to Serbia, his dad had a Serbian passport and mum - because of her 'nationality' - Croatian passport. Four members of the same family, same surname, four passports. Made for some interesting border crossings when they travelled together.

froggit 3y ago

I would continue to identify myself as "American" if USA broke up and each state became it's own country regardless of whether I went abroad prior to that or any other situation of that sort. Some states that cause residents to have conversations like this: Me: "I'm American. Freedom flavored." (don't make assumptions, anyone from North or South America is American) You: "Cool, which state?" Me: "A united state!" You: "What in the actual fuck? They're all united. What specific state do you reside in and/or originate from? (Smartass...)" Me: "Look... If you sweat all the small shit you're gonna die from a heart attack in your 50s." You: "Holy shit... So... Florida?" Me: "Worse." You: "Ah... Question retracted."

freeflight 3y ago
This ignores that such a breaking up of the US would very likely be based on similar dynamics as "balkanizations" that see smaller groups put their own identidy above that of the bigger group. Sentiments that will be reinforced during a civil war when these groups keep trading violence and atrocities with each other, that creates a lot of bad blood and tends to make people identify in ways that differentiate them from "the enemy". Not even Americans are immune to that, it's an issue latent to this day whenever state rights vs federal government comes up.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  It's already happened to some extent but with virtual states - Dem & Rep.

resonious 3y ago

This kind of thing happens with language too. Areas which historically had a lot of immigration sometimes end up with immigrant communities that still speak "the old way". I know some Brazilians of Japanese descent who've moved "back to" Japan. They take Japanese language lessons and the instructors always know to tell these folks "don't talk like your parents/grandparents", since the lingo on the mainland has shifted significantly. I've also heard the rumor that this is why the US and UK speak differently, and that the US is actually how Britain used to sound, but I've also seen people say it's BS.

BerislavLopac 3y ago
It's not a rumour, it's a linguistic fact. It's not exactly the same, as the American English shifted as well -- but many obvious differences, like rhoticism, used to be a norm in the UK as well. In fact, they are still very present in some British accents (just remember the stereotypical Scottish accent), but have changed in "official" accents like RP.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  The rumor the OP mentions that often gets dismissed as bullshit, might be the one that “in a valley in West Virginia/on an island off the Eastern seaboard, people still speak Elizabethan English!”. And that irks people who are knowledgeable because, as you state, American English is a mix of some archaisms along with boatloads of innovations of its own.
- resonious 3y ago
  What's the evidence? I've seen people go back and forth about it, but never seen any actual convincing arguments.
  - BerislavLopac 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoticity_in_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoticity_in_English

hahamaster 3y ago

a lot of older ex-Yugoslavians Hm, more like "some", probably "very few", definitely not "a lot." In my experience these people are from very mixed families, for example: has a Muslim mum, Slovak dad who was a Yugoslav communist bureaucrat, born in Belgrade, married to a Slovenian army man, lives in Vienna and is 75 years old. Everyone else finds one branch of their ethnic composition to identify with.

mmtml 3y ago

I never understood the thing in the US to call yourselves "Americans", there's a whole continent of Americans.

maximinus_thrax 3y ago
I agree. This is why my circle of friends call each other 'Yankees'
yreg 3y ago
How do you call your countrymen?
- wink 3y ago
  It should be USofAians, of course.
foinker 3y ago
I'm sure you understand it perfectly as it's been commonly used this way for a couple of centuries now.

gitanovic 3y ago

What's the name of the continent where "America" is? :D From a European perspective, American means from the continent America, and not specifically from the US. To me a Brazilian is as much American as a US citizen.

fluoridation 3y ago
I'm pretty sure it's only in English and Japanese that "America" and "American" mean "the US" and "someone from the US". Everyone in Latin America also agrees that "americano" is the demonym for the continent.
whyoh 3y ago
>From a European perspective, American means from the continent America, and not specifically from the US. I don't think this is true for most of Europe. For at least three different EU countries that I lived in, America and American is used exclusively for "the US" and "person from the US". "Person from Mexico" and "person from Brazil" would be Mexican and Brazilian, not American. And geographically, the continents are North America and South America, so North Americans and South Americans is used too, in that context. But I don't think I've ever heard Americans to refer to both North and South Americans as a group of people.
- yreg 3y ago
  Yep, I'm from central Europe and we would call Canadian a North-American, but not American. I get the argument against it, but this is how the language is used.
dudul 3y ago
I'm European and to me American means from the USA.
samirelanduk 3y ago
In the UK, "America" always refers to the USA. North America and South America together are called "The Americas", never "America". It may be different in continental languages.

wink 3y ago

My sample size is pretty small but I've heard Croatians in Germany the 90s identify themselves as much as Croatians than as Yugoslavians, at least to my recollections, was a kid then.

jakupovic 3y ago

This is BS and sold to outsiders. "Ne našima". People born there know what happened and who did what. Just a little excerpt from Wiki Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]

mirkules 3y ago
I see so much being cited from Wikipedia, and that is not a reliable source. One only has to look at an article in different languages, clearly authored by different sets of people. For example, if you look up "Kosovo", the English version states "Kosovo ... is a country in Southeast Europe with partial diplomatic recognition" whereas the one in Serbian states (which I will translate): "Република Косово је званични назив једнострано проглашене државе на територији Републике Србије, противно Уставу Србије.[5] Према Резолуцији 1244 Савета безбедности УН цела територија Косова и Метохије, правно гледано, налази се у саставу Србије док не буде постигнуто коначно решење" translated as: "Kosovo is a formal name for a one-sidedly declared country on the territory of Republic of Serbia, to the objection of Serbia. According to the resolution 1244 from the Security Council of the UN, the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija, in terms of the law, belongs to Serbia until a final resolution is reached." Wikipedia is essentially a he-said/she-said website on politically charged matters, and I really wish people would stop treating it as the source of truth.
- jakupovic 3y ago
  Please look up the term "ethnic cleansing" where it originated and the parties involved. I'll save you a bit of time, term ethnic cleansing was coined during Bosnian Civil War and is used to describe forceful removal of ethnic population through violent means think murder at concentration camp scale. Serbs ethnically cleansed Bosnians during Bosnian War. To save you even more time. I don't need Wikipedia to tell me anything about Bosnian War, but people here need sources. You coming in and saying Wikipedia is not a reliable source without citing anything makes you uninformed at best.