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Well, maybe a two row EV shouldn't weigh 9000lb? EVs are subject to their own form of the tyranny of the rocket equation, because the weight is dominated by fu

Well, maybe a two row EV shouldn't weigh 9000lb? EVs are subject to their own form of the tyranny of the rocket equation, because the weight is dominated by fuel (the battery). The more battery you have, the more battery you need to haul that battery around, and so on. So they are the perfect platform for minimalist cars and plug-in hybrid setups... but instead everyone has decided they need to make giant, heavy, hilariously expensive luxury pure EVs.

Rebelgecko 3y ago
Are there any 9000 pound EVs other than the Hummer? That one is notable for its excess, most EVs are much lighter (just like most ICE cars are smaller and more efficient than humvees!)
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  It is an extreme example, but every pure EV I have seen is heavier than the ICE equivalent. The Model 3 3500-4000 lb, and its a small car and lighter than most other EVs.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    The Model 3 is a compact car @ 3,862 to 4,048 lbs, so it would comparable to an Accord rather than a Civic. A Honda accord is 3,239 to 3,280 lbs, so the Model 3 is obviously a few hundred pounds heavier (from 600 - 800 lbs).
    - brucethemoose2 3y ago
      And I would assert that ~3250lb is rather porky for a compact ICE car, even though thats "normal" these days.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Ya, I’m much more interested in a luxury civic class EV, but those don’t really exist yet. We just have the leaf, bolt, and mini in the states.
supertrope 3y ago
There's a lot of path dependence, ossified thinking, and perverse incentives driving this irrational outcome. SUVs and pickup trucks are 80% of the US market because bigger is better in America so customers buy the biggest cars and houses they can afford. On the manufacturer side MSRP is proportional to size and curb weight. GM quit the economy sedan market. Government fuel economy mandates are more forgiving of larger vehicles and provide a "light duty truck" exemption. Gasoline is cheap and always available so all the lessons we learned in 1973 have long been forgotten. Charging networks except for Tesla's suck. Weak charging infrastructure means customers have range anxiety and like many other things in America feel like they are going it alone and cannot rely on sharing or renting on demand, so they demand a huge battery. This huge battery is very expensive so the price of a EV is very high. People expect an expensive car to be luxurious, powerful, or huge. No one wants to pay a green premium. Individuals are rationally responding to government subsidized road and parking infrastructure, lack of any carbon tax, and cheap fuel by consuming bigger cars without bound. Manufacturers are rationally maximizing short term profit by following demand. They're applying the ICE business model of externalizing the cost of roads, "fuel," parking, pollution, insurance. If it wasn't for trillions of dollars spent on car infrastructure like wide roads, highways, mandated parking, gas stations, etc. adoption of ICE cars would also be low. America has extreme car dependency. Just legalizing apartments, mixed use zoning, and building safe e-Bike lanes and mass transit could relieve some car demand and housing shortage in big cities where most people live. The IRA law literally subsidizes big EVs more than sedans! Even owning a car creates crash safety anxiety in which people feel like driving a sedan is not safe enough because everyone else is driving an oversized SUV.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Some of this is negated if manufacturers just sell plug in hybrids with tiny range-extending generators. But mostly they are not, and that is particularly perplexing to me. Is there some kind of stigma against anything but a pure EV?
  - supertrope 3y ago
    Plug-in hybrids only seem to be sold in certain states like California. GM cancelled the Chevy Volt. In states that don't subsidize or mandate them, or are ahem politically opposed to lower tailpipe emission vehicles, inventory is very thin. I wonder if these cars are just compliance models to bring up the CAFE fleet average. A 10 kWh battery adds several thousand dollars to the cost of the car. If manufacturers are not eager to make these widely available in all states it suggests they don't find it profitable. I'm not sure if it's EVs being higher priced and allowing for more margin, or sedans fading away from the market and therefore any PHEV sedans. Toyota does sell a PHEV SUV RAV4 but inventory is very scarce. Stellantis sells a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV (minivan).
brodouevencode 3y ago
Just to clarify: this is true of ICE too, it's just less of a factor.

Rebelgecko 3y ago

Are there any 9000 pound EVs other than the Hummer? That one is notable for its excess, most EVs are much lighter (just like most ICE cars are smaller and more efficient than humvees!)

brucethemoose2 3y ago
It is an extreme example, but every pure EV I have seen is heavier than the ICE equivalent. The Model 3 3500-4000 lb, and its a small car and lighter than most other EVs.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The Model 3 is a compact car @ 3,862 to 4,048 lbs, so it would comparable to an Accord rather than a Civic. A Honda accord is 3,239 to 3,280 lbs, so the Model 3 is obviously a few hundred pounds heavier (from 600 - 800 lbs).
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    And I would assert that ~3250lb is rather porky for a compact ICE car, even though thats "normal" these days.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Ya, I’m much more interested in a luxury civic class EV, but those don’t really exist yet. We just have the leaf, bolt, and mini in the states.

supertrope 3y ago

There's a lot of path dependence, ossified thinking, and perverse incentives driving this irrational outcome. SUVs and pickup trucks are 80% of the US market because bigger is better in America so customers buy the biggest cars and houses they can afford. On the manufacturer side MSRP is proportional to size and curb weight. GM quit the economy sedan market. Government fuel economy mandates are more forgiving of larger vehicles and provide a "light duty truck" exemption. Gasoline is cheap and always available so all the lessons we learned in 1973 have long been forgotten. Charging networks except for Tesla's suck. Weak charging infrastructure means customers have range anxiety and like many other things in America feel like they are going it alone and cannot rely on sharing or renting on demand, so they demand a huge battery. This huge battery is very expensive so the price of a EV is very high. People expect an expensive car to be luxurious, powerful, or huge. No one wants to pay a green premium. Individuals are rationally responding to government subsidized road and parking infrastructure, lack of any carbon tax, and cheap fuel by consuming bigger cars without bound. Manufacturers are rationally maximizing short term profit by following demand. They're applying the ICE business model of externalizing the cost of roads, "fuel," parking, pollution, insurance. If it wasn't for trillions of dollars spent on car infrastructure like wide roads, highways, mandated parking, gas stations, etc. adoption of ICE cars would also be low. America has extreme car dependency. Just legalizing apartments, mixed use zoning, and building safe e-Bike lanes and mass transit could relieve some car demand and housing shortage in big cities where most people live. The IRA law literally subsidizes big EVs more than sedans! Even owning a car creates crash safety anxiety in which people feel like driving a sedan is not safe enough because everyone else is driving an oversized SUV.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
Some of this is negated if manufacturers just sell plug in hybrids with tiny range-extending generators. But mostly they are not, and that is particularly perplexing to me. Is there some kind of stigma against anything but a pure EV?
- supertrope 3y ago
  Plug-in hybrids only seem to be sold in certain states like California. GM cancelled the Chevy Volt. In states that don't subsidize or mandate them, or are ahem politically opposed to lower tailpipe emission vehicles, inventory is very thin. I wonder if these cars are just compliance models to bring up the CAFE fleet average. A 10 kWh battery adds several thousand dollars to the cost of the car. If manufacturers are not eager to make these widely available in all states it suggests they don't find it profitable. I'm not sure if it's EVs being higher priced and allowing for more margin, or sedans fading away from the market and therefore any PHEV sedans. Toyota does sell a PHEV SUV RAV4 but inventory is very scarce. Stellantis sells a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV (minivan).

brodouevencode 3y ago

Just to clarify: this is true of ICE too, it's just less of a factor.