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> if I had to choose a country to get ahead in life with the most opportunities possible as an immigrant, US is still the country to be at. If I was to be rein

> if I had to choose a country to get ahead in life with the most opportunities possible as an immigrant, US is still the country to be at. If I was to be reincarnated as a random person in a given country, I wouldn't pick the US though. Even as a skilled worker who can decide where to work, I prefer some European countries for healthcare, vacations and culture. That being said, I feel Europe is declining and it feels the US could become a better choice in the near future.

solardev 3y ago
Why do you feel as though Europe is declining?
- actuator 3y ago
  Most countries in Western Europe have the social net curse blogging them down. The high tax, high social care system only works if the country is on a good growth track. As more people turn old and retire, someone has to pay for those. With wage stagnation in most normal occupations and lack of growth, the way they have tried to tackle this is with increase in immigration, which in turn keeps wages low in low paying sectors. Also, unlike US which does integration really well, this is not true for Europe where high immigration is leading to even frictions because of lack of integration. On top of that, tech emerging as a big industry which forms a big part of the whole economic output of a country, has led to Europe losing out to US. Although only China through thier protectionism has been safe from that. You can see this in the commentary about UK politics, where they don't have money to fund NHS and NHS wages haven't grown which has bogged down their healthcare system. Most of the manufacturing ecosystem is completely degraded. Productivity is at a complete toss as well, as they are not even able to build high speed rail well now, which for a social net country like UK should be of paramount importance. To combat this, they have increased taxation, either through freezing slabs or moving down tax slabs. This penalises people in high wage professions and it leads to loss of competitiveness.
  - DanBC 3y ago
    > where they don't have money to fund NHS We do have the money to fund the NHS. Successive Conservative governments have made the choice to defund the NHS, along with public health, and social care. And they did all of this on top of Brexit.
  - solardev 3y ago
    You know, the US spends most of our government money on old people too (social security, medicare, etc.). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:Federal_budget_2022.webp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/... We just get less bang for the buck for it because our healthcare and housing are so terribly inefficient and expensive, and we don't have a strong culture of familial support. We can't build high speed rail either -- we can't even keep our low-speed rail running well -- and our answer to expensive healthcare is typically just "let them die, we can replace them" (immigration too, except we don't have to give our immigrants anything, just wink and pretend we hate them). At the end of the day no society has it all figured out yet, but I'd love to live in a place with social services and a less hostile democracy so that all the citizens can work together to figure out next steps, instead of being dragged kicking and screaming by the rich. It's just a more collectivist mindset, not necessarily better or more right in any way.
    - actuator 3y ago
      > You know, the US spends most of our government money on old people too (social security, medicare, etc.). My whole point was how these issues are less of an issue for US, again comparing with UK US has better age demographic distribution than UK The net tax burden on an average UK person is way higher compared to US while having worse average wages. Quick googling shows per capita income tax collected in US is $15K, while in UK it is $21K GDP per capita of UK is $46K compared to US's 70K If even after having high taxes, a country is having problem funding social services, then that's a big issue as the high taxes are meant to take care of that. US doesn't have this issue as taxes being lower, people can use the money not spent on tax on funding the social care things for themselves. Also, overall US is still an attractive place for high earners so it will keep on attracting people from those segments which will boost its tax revenues and lead to decline of Europe. As while western Europe might be still a good place for people on median wages or below, USA might be much better for people on the other end
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  Europe's demographics simply cannot support the size of their social safety nets. European countries are already relying more on immigrants, but immigration from central / eastern europe is already tapped out. That only leaves you with immigrants from beyond the EU. Most of those who have any skills are going to try to get into the US. The ones that can't are probably going to try and get residency / citizenship in canada and get in via a TN visa. Europe is left with the remainder, and unskilled migrants from cultures which frankly have a much harder time integrating into a western one. Over the long term it's a pretty dire situation.
  - jonkoops 3y ago
    > European countries are already relying more on immigrants The birth rate in the US is 1.64, the EU average is 1.53. So this is almost equally true for the US, a country historically built on the backs of immigrants.
    - spamizbad 3y ago
      The chickens are going to come home to roost soon enough wrt America's population growth. Lots of talk about what happens when the Boomers have fully exited the workforce, but 30+ years down the road when Millennials follow them we're going to be in a similar situation as Europe/China. My hope is that we open ourselves up more.
      - delfinom 3y ago
        That's happening sooner than you think. We are in the boomer retirement wave. The peak is within 5 years. The tail end is in 10 years (from now).
    - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
      I don't have the stats in front of me, but when you factor in immigration the us is over 2.0 while Europe still lags.
  - delfinom 3y ago
- tejinderss 3y ago
  Housing crisis, wars, uncontrolled immigration, high taxation, crumbling infrastructure (atleast here in ireland), declining economies. You name it.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  There may be some part of subjectivity and pessimism involved, but here are a few things in France (and I think it applies to most European countries): - heatlhcare isn't what it used to be. Sure, it's free but it can take months to see some doctors, or even a dentist. - retirement: the pension system isn't good. Most people will get less than 1.5K a month, and not before 64. The effects of the various pension reforms aren't visible yet but they will increase old people poverty. - safety: this is political and people hold strong opinions on this, but my feeling is that poverty is on the rise, there are more and more unemployed young refugees... More speculatively, I think Europe lacks natural resources and this is going to bite us more than the US.
- JauntTrooper 3y ago
  Many countries in Europe have been in an economic malaise for some time now. https://archive.ph/dqbDH https://archive.ph/dqbDH > The eurozone economy grew about 6% over the past 15 years, measured in dollars, compared with 82% for the U.S., according to International Monetary Fund data. That has left the average EU country poorer per head than every U.S. state except Idaho and Mississippi, according to a report this month by the European Centre for International Political Economy, a Brussels-based independent think tank. If the current trend continues, by 2035 the gap between economic output per capita in the U.S. and EU will be as large as that between Japan and Ecuador today, the report said. > The European Union now accounts for about 18% of all global consumption spending, compared with 28% for America. Fifteen years ago, the EU and the U.S. each represented about a quarter of that total. > Adjusted for inflation and purchasing power, wages have declined by about 3% since 2019 in Germany, by 3.5% in Italy and Spain and by 6% in Greece. Real wages in the U.S. have increased by about 6% over the same period, according to OECD data.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    > Many countries in Europe have been in an economic malaise for some time now Keep in mind a lot of this is exchange rates. If you look at GDP PPP, while falling slightly behind, the EU has mostly kept up with the US: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.KD?locations=US-EU https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.KD?locat... Now nominal value is more important on a global influence scale so the usual figures still mean a lot, but it's way more nuanced than most peopl think.
mcntsh 3y ago
In my (albeit unusual, privileged) experience as a highly paid tech worker, vacations/healthcare are not bad in the US... I've had more vacation days, and much better access to healthcare (for a cheaper price) in the US. Also the wealth differential is astronomical.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > In my (albeit unusual, privileged) experience as a highly paid tech worker, vacations/healthcare are not bad in the US... Healthcare and vacations in the US are often reasonable for the developed world if you are, e.g., a highly-paid tech worker or other elite worker or, in some jurisdictions, a public sector worker (especially one with many years in, for vacations) For the other, oh, 80% of the US working population, though, that's not true.
  - mcntsh 3y ago
    Right, I'm just speaking for the "highly skilled" working class here. To put it into perspective, in Germany you might make 4k/month as a highly educated, highly skilled worker with years of experience. Even if you work remote (most don't) you won't be able to find a decent small house even in the middle of nowhere below 500k.
    - pillefitz 3y ago
      After tax, healthcare and pension, I make 80k Euros as a highly skilled tech worker in Germany. Living expenses including rent amount up to 20k per year, so I save 60k per year. Paying off a nice house therefore takes around 10 years, which is not bad at all. I recently visited the US and haven't been happier to be a EU citizen in a long time, tbh.
      - mcntsh 3y ago
        So you make 140k+ a year? That's an extremely high salary for Germany, you must be in the top 1-2% of earners in the country. Going by levels FYI, this would put you in the 95th percentile, the equivalent in NYC would be $400,000. Which is nuts combined with your 20k/yr living expenses. When did you get your apartment, 2009?

solardev 3y ago

Why do you feel as though Europe is declining?

actuator 3y ago
Most countries in Western Europe have the social net curse blogging them down. The high tax, high social care system only works if the country is on a good growth track. As more people turn old and retire, someone has to pay for those. With wage stagnation in most normal occupations and lack of growth, the way they have tried to tackle this is with increase in immigration, which in turn keeps wages low in low paying sectors. Also, unlike US which does integration really well, this is not true for Europe where high immigration is leading to even frictions because of lack of integration. On top of that, tech emerging as a big industry which forms a big part of the whole economic output of a country, has led to Europe losing out to US. Although only China through thier protectionism has been safe from that. You can see this in the commentary about UK politics, where they don't have money to fund NHS and NHS wages haven't grown which has bogged down their healthcare system. Most of the manufacturing ecosystem is completely degraded. Productivity is at a complete toss as well, as they are not even able to build high speed rail well now, which for a social net country like UK should be of paramount importance. To combat this, they have increased taxation, either through freezing slabs or moving down tax slabs. This penalises people in high wage professions and it leads to loss of competitiveness.
- DanBC 3y ago
  > where they don't have money to fund NHS We do have the money to fund the NHS. Successive Conservative governments have made the choice to defund the NHS, along with public health, and social care. And they did all of this on top of Brexit.
- solardev 3y ago
  You know, the US spends most of our government money on old people too (social security, medicare, etc.). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/media/File:Federal_budget_2022.webp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/... We just get less bang for the buck for it because our healthcare and housing are so terribly inefficient and expensive, and we don't have a strong culture of familial support. We can't build high speed rail either -- we can't even keep our low-speed rail running well -- and our answer to expensive healthcare is typically just "let them die, we can replace them" (immigration too, except we don't have to give our immigrants anything, just wink and pretend we hate them). At the end of the day no society has it all figured out yet, but I'd love to live in a place with social services and a less hostile democracy so that all the citizens can work together to figure out next steps, instead of being dragged kicking and screaming by the rich. It's just a more collectivist mindset, not necessarily better or more right in any way.
  - actuator 3y ago
    > You know, the US spends most of our government money on old people too (social security, medicare, etc.). My whole point was how these issues are less of an issue for US, again comparing with UK US has better age demographic distribution than UK The net tax burden on an average UK person is way higher compared to US while having worse average wages. Quick googling shows per capita income tax collected in US is $15K, while in UK it is $21K GDP per capita of UK is $46K compared to US's 70K If even after having high taxes, a country is having problem funding social services, then that's a big issue as the high taxes are meant to take care of that. US doesn't have this issue as taxes being lower, people can use the money not spent on tax on funding the social care things for themselves. Also, overall US is still an attractive place for high earners so it will keep on attracting people from those segments which will boost its tax revenues and lead to decline of Europe. As while western Europe might be still a good place for people on median wages or below, USA might be much better for people on the other end
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
Europe's demographics simply cannot support the size of their social safety nets. European countries are already relying more on immigrants, but immigration from central / eastern europe is already tapped out. That only leaves you with immigrants from beyond the EU. Most of those who have any skills are going to try to get into the US. The ones that can't are probably going to try and get residency / citizenship in canada and get in via a TN visa. Europe is left with the remainder, and unskilled migrants from cultures which frankly have a much harder time integrating into a western one. Over the long term it's a pretty dire situation.
- jonkoops 3y ago
  > European countries are already relying more on immigrants The birth rate in the US is 1.64, the EU average is 1.53. So this is almost equally true for the US, a country historically built on the backs of immigrants.
  - spamizbad 3y ago
    The chickens are going to come home to roost soon enough wrt America's population growth. Lots of talk about what happens when the Boomers have fully exited the workforce, but 30+ years down the road when Millennials follow them we're going to be in a similar situation as Europe/China. My hope is that we open ourselves up more.
    - delfinom 3y ago
      That's happening sooner than you think. We are in the boomer retirement wave. The peak is within 5 years. The tail end is in 10 years (from now).
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    I don't have the stats in front of me, but when you factor in immigration the us is over 2.0 while Europe still lags.
- delfinom 3y ago
tejinderss 3y ago
Housing crisis, wars, uncontrolled immigration, high taxation, crumbling infrastructure (atleast here in ireland), declining economies. You name it.
yodsanklai 3y ago
There may be some part of subjectivity and pessimism involved, but here are a few things in France (and I think it applies to most European countries): - heatlhcare isn't what it used to be. Sure, it's free but it can take months to see some doctors, or even a dentist. - retirement: the pension system isn't good. Most people will get less than 1.5K a month, and not before 64. The effects of the various pension reforms aren't visible yet but they will increase old people poverty. - safety: this is political and people hold strong opinions on this, but my feeling is that poverty is on the rise, there are more and more unemployed young refugees... More speculatively, I think Europe lacks natural resources and this is going to bite us more than the US.
JauntTrooper 3y ago
Many countries in Europe have been in an economic malaise for some time now. https://archive.ph/dqbDH https://archive.ph/dqbDH > The eurozone economy grew about 6% over the past 15 years, measured in dollars, compared with 82% for the U.S., according to International Monetary Fund data. That has left the average EU country poorer per head than every U.S. state except Idaho and Mississippi, according to a report this month by the European Centre for International Political Economy, a Brussels-based independent think tank. If the current trend continues, by 2035 the gap between economic output per capita in the U.S. and EU will be as large as that between Japan and Ecuador today, the report said. > The European Union now accounts for about 18% of all global consumption spending, compared with 28% for America. Fifteen years ago, the EU and the U.S. each represented about a quarter of that total. > Adjusted for inflation and purchasing power, wages have declined by about 3% since 2019 in Germany, by 3.5% in Italy and Spain and by 6% in Greece. Real wages in the U.S. have increased by about 6% over the same period, according to OECD data.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > Many countries in Europe have been in an economic malaise for some time now Keep in mind a lot of this is exchange rates. If you look at GDP PPP, while falling slightly behind, the EU has mostly kept up with the US: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.KD?locations=US-EU https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.KD?locat... Now nominal value is more important on a global influence scale so the usual figures still mean a lot, but it's way more nuanced than most peopl think.

mcntsh 3y ago

In my (albeit unusual, privileged) experience as a highly paid tech worker, vacations/healthcare are not bad in the US... I've had more vacation days, and much better access to healthcare (for a cheaper price) in the US. Also the wealth differential is astronomical.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> In my (albeit unusual, privileged) experience as a highly paid tech worker, vacations/healthcare are not bad in the US... Healthcare and vacations in the US are often reasonable for the developed world if you are, e.g., a highly-paid tech worker or other elite worker or, in some jurisdictions, a public sector worker (especially one with many years in, for vacations) For the other, oh, 80% of the US working population, though, that's not true.
- mcntsh 3y ago
  Right, I'm just speaking for the "highly skilled" working class here. To put it into perspective, in Germany you might make 4k/month as a highly educated, highly skilled worker with years of experience. Even if you work remote (most don't) you won't be able to find a decent small house even in the middle of nowhere below 500k.
  - pillefitz 3y ago
    After tax, healthcare and pension, I make 80k Euros as a highly skilled tech worker in Germany. Living expenses including rent amount up to 20k per year, so I save 60k per year. Paying off a nice house therefore takes around 10 years, which is not bad at all. I recently visited the US and haven't been happier to be a EU citizen in a long time, tbh.
    - mcntsh 3y ago
      So you make 140k+ a year? That's an extremely high salary for Germany, you must be in the top 1-2% of earners in the country. Going by levels FYI, this would put you in the 95th percentile, the equivalent in NYC would be $400,000. Which is nuts combined with your 20k/yr living expenses. When did you get your apartment, 2009?