6 ms·

I have the opposite problem: I have a US passport (only), and wish I could emigrate to a developed country that isn't so dysfunctional, militaristic, and capita

I have the opposite problem: I have a US passport (only), and wish I could emigrate to a developed country that isn't so dysfunctional, militaristic, and capitalistic. (I grew up in another country, but never got a passport there because I had a US one from birth. I also spent several weeks in a few other countries -- enough to get a very basic feel for their society and services.) The US is great if you want to "get ahead" (and manage to do so), but if you just want a peaceful, boring life, this is not the place to be. We treat our society like a zero-sum game. Between our terrible healthcare, education, school safety, infrastructure, public transportation, politics, insane housing costs, corrupt judges, stances on drugs and abortion, it really feels like a hellhole where either you're rich or you're worthless. I'd much rather prefer somewhere in Europe, especially Scandinavia, or maybe Canada or East Asia. But it's not easy to emigrate. Even this framing is itself pretty terrible: Our GDP outpaced expectations, so that must be good, right? Hardly. That just means the rich get richer, leaving everyone else even further behind. Life actually seemed way better for millions of working class folks during COVID, when the economy was tanking and government simply propped it up, and suddenly workers everywhere had a lot more respect and negotiation power, and unions grew for the first time in decades. It was the first time in my life I saw our society come together to work together, instead of trying to massively exploit the poor. Then a couple years after COVID and that all goes away, whether it's WFH or mass layoffs. I would say the US only makes sense IF you are strongly competitive/entrepreneurial and libertarian, not if you are community-minded and just want to live a normal life under a functioning democratic society. "Pro-business" usually means "anti-democratic" in our society, by disproportionately empowering capital ownership rather than democratic participation and process.

arrowsmith 3y ago
> I wish I could emigrate What's stopping you?
- solardev 3y ago
  My understanding -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that you typically need either wealth, higher education (masters+), or an in-demand trade in order to emigrate to another country on a skilled visa or similar. I have only a B.S., negative net worth, and no special skills except web dev (which is increasingly worthless these days). Are there other avenues to emigration that I'm missing? Also, my partner is American and has family here. I keep trying to convince her to give foreign living a try, and she's traveled with me a bunch now, but it's still a lot to ask of someone who's only ever lived in their home country. Me, I've spent a lot of time traveling to different countries and have a pretty broad perspective to draw from. It's harder for someone who's never really done that. Still, I hope to coax her into it over time!
  - onemoresoop 3y ago
    I know a lot of Polish people who came to the US are now going back to Poland for a better life. No doubt many have amassed some wealth from blue collar work for one or two decades and now can afford to have a better life back home, mainly raising kids peacefully and so on. It's hard for newer immigrants to make that kind of bargain in the US nowadays though, many new immigrants struggle with high rents and not being able to same much to return to their homes. Some of them are lucky and make it better but a lot of them live in the paycheck to paycheck mode with the vulnerability that if something bad hits them like hospital visit they're as good as homeless.
    - Mouthfeel 3y ago
      [dead]
  - tristan957 3y ago
    I have many Russian colleagues that immigrated to the EU, some of them web developers like yourself. If that is your dream, you should give it a shot.
    - solardev 3y ago
      Can you recommend any particular countries in the E.U. to look into for this? I'll research more!
      - monknomo 3y ago
        Portugal and Spain offer a digital nomad visa, if you can work remote. After a number of years, and other factors, you could apply for citizenship. The Netherlands has DAFT, which take ~$5k and a business bank account (I think you also need to run a business, but freelancing web dev would count from what I've read) to get a visa, and after 5 years in country you can apply for citizenship
        solardev 3y ago
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Getting a permanent visa (or citizenship) anywhere in the world is generally extremely difficult. Unless you get married, how exactly would you propose an average American emigrate to Germany or Japan, for example? There's a ton stopping someone. It's not impossible, but it can take years of work, require a change of careers, and you have to say goodbye to a lot of family and friends.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  I can't speak for him, but my disability precludes me from moving to most developed countries with universal healthcare. Many countries automatically assume I would be a burden to their systems, despite the fact that my medication is ~ $5 / mo and I'm (supposedly) a skilled software developer.
triceratops 3y ago
> That just means the rich get richer, leaving everyone else even further behind Why does it necessarily mean that?
- solardev 3y ago
  Because US wealth usually grows at the top and doesn't really trickle down. Data from 2020, but it's probably not changed much: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-... 2023 graph: https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/2023/09/05/d33a1656-f37e-4661-9111-f6fe593ffa8a/jcr:content/report/chapter_2/exhibitGroup_7/exhibit_7.img.png https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/202... (from https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/2023/09/05/d33a1656-f37e-4661-9111-f6fe593ffa8a.html https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/202...) With the massive increases in inflation and housing costs, the middle class and below can't really keep up. A 5% increase in earning power for them is like a few thousand dollars a year (that they have to immediately spend on housing and services), vs millions or billions for capitalists that can then reinvest in growth sectors (AI and whatnot).
  - triceratops 3y ago
    Wealth is different from GDP.
gottorf 3y ago
As an immigrant to the US (and having lived in multiple countries before that), I definitely have a different view. It's quite interesting how often that is the case. > We treat our society like a zero-sum game. In my experience, Americans are some of the least zero-sum thinking people, perhaps driven by the natural geographic advantages of the country. In other parts of the world, a zero-sum attitude is the norm, not the exception. It's suffocating if you live in it. I regard this as one of America's greatest strengths. As for some of the things you find dissatisfactory with the US: > politics I'm sure many people everywhere think their country has uniquely dysfunctional politics, just like how people in every city claim that their city has the worst drivers. Belgium went without a government for years. The Taiwanese parliament breaks out in fistfights every now and then. > insane housing costs I don't know how things are in Scandinavia, but Canada or any part of East Asia are absolutely much worse by this metric. Look up median multiples in different countries; you'll find that the US is very favorable, especially among developed countries. A middle-class family being able to afford to own a house happens more in the US than virtually any other place. > corrupt judges I'm not really sure what you mean. Do you find the US judiciary to be more corrupt than in other countries? > stances on drugs and abortion What do you find terrible about these? Drug laws are relatively lax in general in the US, and especially in certain states. Many Asian countries punish drug users and traffickers very harshly. On abortion, you might be surprised to find that most Western European countries are much more restrictive than the liberal American states. > the rich get richer, leaving everyone else even further behind The real median personal income[0] has been on a broadly upward trend. The great majority of Americans make more money than their parents; more than half of people born to parents in the bottom quintile of incomes end up in a higher quintile; and conversely, more than half of people born to parents in the top quintile end up in a lower quintile[1]. In Europe, some of the very richest have remained the very richest for literal centuries[2]. In the US, you'd be hard-pressed to find people on the Forbes 400 list whose grandparents were also on the same list. > Life actually seemed way better for millions of working class folks during COVID, when the economy was tanking and government simply propped it up Your argument is that life seems better when the government prints money and hands it out to people? Surely you understand that there's a very sharp limit to how far that can go. > if you just want a peaceful, boring life, this is not the place to be I don't know where in the US you are, but it's a huge country with very diverse lifestyles to be found. Where I live, in a midsize Southern city, my barber, who has no college education or inheritance, lives on a 10-acre property with his wife and children. Their house is very modest, but they are saving up to build a bigger one. This seems the definition of a "peaceful, boring life". If you want this kind of life on a median or below income in some of the most desirable cities in the country, I grant you that's going to be very tough. But that is the case anywhere in the world. People constantly tread water just to get by in big, competitive cities. > I also spent several weeks in a few other countries -- enough to get a very basic feel for their society and services Being on vacation in a country is very different than living there. Ultimately, different people value things differently, and you may very well find yourself happier in another country. I'm just pointing out that it's very easy to view other countries with rosy glasses, and that the view of the US as "a hellhole where either you're rich or you're worthless" is by many objective metrics untrue. [0]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [1]: https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2012/pursuingamericandreampdf.pdf https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_a... [2]: https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-florence https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-floren...
kjfdslakj 3y ago
> Between our terrible healthcare, education, school safety, infrastructure, public transportation, politics, insane housing costs, corrupt judges, stances on drugs and abortion, it really feels like a hellhole where either you're rich or you're worthless. Sigh. You're painting with a huge black and white brush.
sifar 3y ago
>> We treat our society like a zero-sum game. This and being a community is not exclusive. Asian countries are some of the worst zero-sum countries, simply by virtue of resource/person, yet simultaneously being very community focused. People behave in zero-sum way for one thing and in a community way for another.
anon291 3y ago
> Life actually seemed way better for millions of working class folks during COVID, when the economy was tanking and government simply propped it up, and suddenly workers everywhere had a lot more respect and negotiation power, and unions grew for the first time in decades. It was the first time in my life I saw our society come together to work together, instead of trying to massively exploit the poor. This is delusional. Aside from government enforced job loss, firings of people with differing views, and forcing low status occupations to continue working crazy hours and burn out, I guess labor won? Maybe? Needing unions to fight for higher wages caused by stupid economic policy is hardly a win

arrowsmith 3y ago

> I wish I could emigrate What's stopping you?

solardev 3y ago
My understanding -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that you typically need either wealth, higher education (masters+), or an in-demand trade in order to emigrate to another country on a skilled visa or similar. I have only a B.S., negative net worth, and no special skills except web dev (which is increasingly worthless these days). Are there other avenues to emigration that I'm missing? Also, my partner is American and has family here. I keep trying to convince her to give foreign living a try, and she's traveled with me a bunch now, but it's still a lot to ask of someone who's only ever lived in their home country. Me, I've spent a lot of time traveling to different countries and have a pretty broad perspective to draw from. It's harder for someone who's never really done that. Still, I hope to coax her into it over time!
- onemoresoop 3y ago
  I know a lot of Polish people who came to the US are now going back to Poland for a better life. No doubt many have amassed some wealth from blue collar work for one or two decades and now can afford to have a better life back home, mainly raising kids peacefully and so on. It's hard for newer immigrants to make that kind of bargain in the US nowadays though, many new immigrants struggle with high rents and not being able to same much to return to their homes. Some of them are lucky and make it better but a lot of them live in the paycheck to paycheck mode with the vulnerability that if something bad hits them like hospital visit they're as good as homeless.
  - Mouthfeel 3y ago
    [dead]
- tristan957 3y ago
  I have many Russian colleagues that immigrated to the EU, some of them web developers like yourself. If that is your dream, you should give it a shot.
  - solardev 3y ago
    Can you recommend any particular countries in the E.U. to look into for this? I'll research more!
    - monknomo 3y ago
      Portugal and Spain offer a digital nomad visa, if you can work remote. After a number of years, and other factors, you could apply for citizenship. The Netherlands has DAFT, which take ~$5k and a business bank account (I think you also need to run a business, but freelancing web dev would count from what I've read) to get a visa, and after 5 years in country you can apply for citizenship
      - solardev 3y ago
crazygringo 3y ago
Getting a permanent visa (or citizenship) anywhere in the world is generally extremely difficult. Unless you get married, how exactly would you propose an average American emigrate to Germany or Japan, for example? There's a ton stopping someone. It's not impossible, but it can take years of work, require a change of careers, and you have to say goodbye to a lot of family and friends.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
I can't speak for him, but my disability precludes me from moving to most developed countries with universal healthcare. Many countries automatically assume I would be a burden to their systems, despite the fact that my medication is ~ $5 / mo and I'm (supposedly) a skilled software developer.

triceratops 3y ago

> That just means the rich get richer, leaving everyone else even further behind Why does it necessarily mean that?

solardev 3y ago
Because US wealth usually grows at the top and doesn't really trickle down. Data from 2020, but it's probably not changed much: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-... 2023 graph: https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/2023/09/05/d33a1656-f37e-4661-9111-f6fe593ffa8a/jcr:content/report/chapter_2/exhibitGroup_7/exhibit_7.img.png https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/202... (from https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/2023/09/05/d33a1656-f37e-4661-9111-f6fe593ffa8a.html https://www.gspublishing.com/content/research/en/reports/202...) With the massive increases in inflation and housing costs, the middle class and below can't really keep up. A 5% increase in earning power for them is like a few thousand dollars a year (that they have to immediately spend on housing and services), vs millions or billions for capitalists that can then reinvest in growth sectors (AI and whatnot).
- triceratops 3y ago
  Wealth is different from GDP.

gottorf 3y ago

As an immigrant to the US (and having lived in multiple countries before that), I definitely have a different view. It's quite interesting how often that is the case. > We treat our society like a zero-sum game. In my experience, Americans are some of the least zero-sum thinking people, perhaps driven by the natural geographic advantages of the country. In other parts of the world, a zero-sum attitude is the norm, not the exception. It's suffocating if you live in it. I regard this as one of America's greatest strengths. As for some of the things you find dissatisfactory with the US: > politics I'm sure many people everywhere think their country has uniquely dysfunctional politics, just like how people in every city claim that their city has the worst drivers. Belgium went without a government for years. The Taiwanese parliament breaks out in fistfights every now and then. > insane housing costs I don't know how things are in Scandinavia, but Canada or any part of East Asia are absolutely much worse by this metric. Look up median multiples in different countries; you'll find that the US is very favorable, especially among developed countries. A middle-class family being able to afford to own a house happens more in the US than virtually any other place. > corrupt judges I'm not really sure what you mean. Do you find the US judiciary to be more corrupt than in other countries? > stances on drugs and abortion What do you find terrible about these? Drug laws are relatively lax in general in the US, and especially in certain states. Many Asian countries punish drug users and traffickers very harshly. On abortion, you might be surprised to find that most Western European countries are much more restrictive than the liberal American states. > the rich get richer, leaving everyone else even further behind The real median personal income[0] has been on a broadly upward trend. The great majority of Americans make more money than their parents; more than half of people born to parents in the bottom quintile of incomes end up in a higher quintile; and conversely, more than half of people born to parents in the top quintile end up in a lower quintile[1]. In Europe, some of the very richest have remained the very richest for literal centuries[2]. In the US, you'd be hard-pressed to find people on the Forbes 400 list whose grandparents were also on the same list. > Life actually seemed way better for millions of working class folks during COVID, when the economy was tanking and government simply propped it up Your argument is that life seems better when the government prints money and hands it out to people? Surely you understand that there's a very sharp limit to how far that can go. > if you just want a peaceful, boring life, this is not the place to be I don't know where in the US you are, but it's a huge country with very diverse lifestyles to be found. Where I live, in a midsize Southern city, my barber, who has no college education or inheritance, lives on a 10-acre property with his wife and children. Their house is very modest, but they are saving up to build a bigger one. This seems the definition of a "peaceful, boring life". If you want this kind of life on a median or below income in some of the most desirable cities in the country, I grant you that's going to be very tough. But that is the case anywhere in the world. People constantly tread water just to get by in big, competitive cities. > I also spent several weeks in a few other countries -- enough to get a very basic feel for their society and services Being on vacation in a country is very different than living there. Ultimately, different people value things differently, and you may very well find yourself happier in another country. I'm just pointing out that it's very easy to view other countries with rosy glasses, and that the view of the US as "a hellhole where either you're rich or you're worthless" is by many objective metrics untrue. [0]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [1]: https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_assets/2012/pursuingamericandreampdf.pdf https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_a... [2]: https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-florence https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11691818/barone-mocetti-floren...

kjfdslakj 3y ago

> Between our terrible healthcare, education, school safety, infrastructure, public transportation, politics, insane housing costs, corrupt judges, stances on drugs and abortion, it really feels like a hellhole where either you're rich or you're worthless. Sigh. You're painting with a huge black and white brush.

sifar 3y ago

>> We treat our society like a zero-sum game. This and being a community is not exclusive. Asian countries are some of the worst zero-sum countries, simply by virtue of resource/person, yet simultaneously being very community focused. People behave in zero-sum way for one thing and in a community way for another.

anon291 3y ago

> Life actually seemed way better for millions of working class folks during COVID, when the economy was tanking and government simply propped it up, and suddenly workers everywhere had a lot more respect and negotiation power, and unions grew for the first time in decades. It was the first time in my life I saw our society come together to work together, instead of trying to massively exploit the poor. This is delusional. Aside from government enforced job loss, firings of people with differing views, and forcing low status occupations to continue working crazy hours and burn out, I guess labor won? Maybe? Needing unions to fight for higher wages caused by stupid economic policy is hardly a win