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Tories: vandalise anything on the way out for profit for their mates. Labour: Do nothing to reverse these as liberty's not a priority for the social equality e

Tories: vandalise anything on the way out for profit for their mates. Labour: Do nothing to reverse these as liberty's not a priority for the social equality ego theme du jour in fashion for the decade.

stranded22 3y ago
Labour not in power.
weevil 3y ago
> social equality ego theme du jour Labour actively avoid doing anything the Tories can spin to weaponise the electorate against them. They don't feel bold enough to reverse anything the Tories have done, because the Tories will spin it as Labour taking away our freedoms or charging us too much tax whatever nonsense.
- hanniabu 3y ago
  We're seeing the same in the US. I wonder the where this rise in authoritarianism will lead, especially in the current timeframe where it's so easy to push out misinformation to win narratives and robotic armies you can control with a small team are right around the corner. Pretty soon revolutions will be impossible and the masses will be slaves to whatever conditions the rulers desire. Dark times are nigh.
  - kbrkbr 3y ago
    Once there was another republic and empire. It also had a Senate, the original one. In this republic populism became also strong, there were even civil wars. Later strong army leaders removed the republic (and then reinstated it on paper). It was not necessarily a dark time for their minions (Pax Augusta). In the end the empire broke down in the west. Much later also in the east, but some say it lives on in the Russian empire (for example Putin). Often enough in history though if a society moved fast in one direction, it would regress to the mean. We'll see.
    - hanniabu 3y ago
      The difference is the ability to command an army of robots and not having to rely on humans with free with that can turn against you. The (increasingly) mass surveillance society we have combined with robot armies that can police you, enforce whatever rules they want, and oppress you will be imo an unstoppable force. Especially when combined with misinformation controlling the narrative and making half the population thinking there's nothing wrong with any of it.
- ljm 3y ago
  It's not the Tories alone but the mainstream media that they are in bed with, which has an overwhelmingly right wing/neoliberal bias. The stories of Rupert Murdoch's influence on our politics are not exaggerated. The last time Labour secured an election victory on the back of a Tory government was when Tony Blair got into bed with the media and played hard ball with PR and spin, all the way back in 1997. I've no idea what Starmer's strategy is but it seems to be successfully keeping the media's attention on the current government's incompetence.
  - 3seashells 3y ago
    Murdoch is still alive?
    - toyg 3y ago
      His network of cronies very much is, from Rebekah Brooks to Piers Morgan. They still pull in the same direction.
    - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
      He is busy at this time of year.
    - UncleSlacky 3y ago
      The good die young (see also: Henry Kissinger).
  - CommanderData 3y ago
    The media Tory relationship is very understated. The media is very much the reason most of the British electorate will still vote Conservatives, even after years of scandals.
    - gadders 3y ago
      "Everyone who doesn't vote like me has been taken in by the media. Only people who agree with me are smart enough to see through it."
- nradov 3y ago
  If your own policies are so easily weaponized against you then maybe your policies aren't very good. Is it so hard to believe that regular voters might have ideological reasons for preferring a smaller, less intrusive government that imposes lower taxes? And blaming a hostile media is entirely too facile. Other politicians and parties have managed to win despite such obstacles by crafting messages that actually inspire voters.
  - zht 3y ago
    Like brexit right
    - waihtis 3y ago
      whether that was the right choice will be seen in a 20 year timespan, given how soviet-like the direction EU has started taking looks like they might end up winners in this equation.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > given how soviet-like the direction EU has started taking looks Then they should have left in twenty years. Britain has managed one of the more drastic peacetime reductions in wealth, influence and stability of any rich country post WWII.
        callamdelaney 3y ago
        That's objectively false.
        ben_w 3y ago
        The collapse of the USSR to Russia et al might count as a "rich" country doing worse. Can you name any others? Now I think about it, I suppose the loss of the British Empire itself might be one… after all, that was what got it excited to join the European project in the first place, though given national attitudes I'm sure the fact that the French boycotted it initially probably also helped sell the idea.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  > Labour actively avoid doing anything the Tories can spin to weaponise the electorate against them Except on immigration, where the roles are reversed [1]. That's why immigration to the UK increased post-Brexit, despite the referendum being an expression of anti-immigration sentiment [2]. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/25/world/europe/uk-migration.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/25/world/europe/uk-migration...
  - gadders 3y ago
    Easier to import supportive voters than create them.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      Immigrants don't get to vote for MPs until they've become citizens[0], that takes ages and is really expensive[1]. [0] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8985/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [1] https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-indefinite-leave-to-remain https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-indefinite-leave-to-rem... for the citizenship itself, plus double-paying for the NHS in the meantime: https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-much-pay https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-mu...
      - autoexec 3y ago
        Their kids will get to vote though
        ben_w 3y ago
        They take even longer to any electoral payoff (even if it's positive), both because of the legal minimum age and because younger people tend to participate less in elections.
- gadders 3y ago
  The saying is in General Elections that Parties don't win them, Governments lose them. That being the case, sitting back and doing very little could be a sensible strategy.
phatfish 3y ago
That's what you get from an electoral system that reduces to a binary choice. Bad or worse, pick one.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hristov 3y ago
I beg to differ. It would be more correct to say: Labour: Try to copy the Torries in everything but intensity. Try to be slightly less awful than the Torries only to a degree necessary to convince the shell shocked and horrified voters to vote for you. This is how Labour has been operating since Tony Blair, with the minor diversion of Jeremy Corbyn. But Jeremy Corbyn was punished and dragged trough the mud so thoroughly that it is unlikely that him or anyone like him will lead Labour ever again. So we are back to Tony Blair Labour. This is all very similar to the relationship between the Republicans and Democrats in the US.
- ben_w 3y ago
  In my opinion, Corbyn (for all that I broadly like his policies), was somewhere between Johnson and Truss with regards to actual competency — he did after all loose a motion of no confidence by 197–40.

stranded22 3y ago

Labour not in power.

weevil 3y ago

> social equality ego theme du jour Labour actively avoid doing anything the Tories can spin to weaponise the electorate against them. They don't feel bold enough to reverse anything the Tories have done, because the Tories will spin it as Labour taking away our freedoms or charging us too much tax whatever nonsense.

hanniabu 3y ago
We're seeing the same in the US. I wonder the where this rise in authoritarianism will lead, especially in the current timeframe where it's so easy to push out misinformation to win narratives and robotic armies you can control with a small team are right around the corner. Pretty soon revolutions will be impossible and the masses will be slaves to whatever conditions the rulers desire. Dark times are nigh.
- kbrkbr 3y ago
  Once there was another republic and empire. It also had a Senate, the original one. In this republic populism became also strong, there were even civil wars. Later strong army leaders removed the republic (and then reinstated it on paper). It was not necessarily a dark time for their minions (Pax Augusta). In the end the empire broke down in the west. Much later also in the east, but some say it lives on in the Russian empire (for example Putin). Often enough in history though if a society moved fast in one direction, it would regress to the mean. We'll see.
  - hanniabu 3y ago
    The difference is the ability to command an army of robots and not having to rely on humans with free with that can turn against you. The (increasingly) mass surveillance society we have combined with robot armies that can police you, enforce whatever rules they want, and oppress you will be imo an unstoppable force. Especially when combined with misinformation controlling the narrative and making half the population thinking there's nothing wrong with any of it.
ljm 3y ago
It's not the Tories alone but the mainstream media that they are in bed with, which has an overwhelmingly right wing/neoliberal bias. The stories of Rupert Murdoch's influence on our politics are not exaggerated. The last time Labour secured an election victory on the back of a Tory government was when Tony Blair got into bed with the media and played hard ball with PR and spin, all the way back in 1997. I've no idea what Starmer's strategy is but it seems to be successfully keeping the media's attention on the current government's incompetence.
- 3seashells 3y ago
  Murdoch is still alive?
  - toyg 3y ago
    His network of cronies very much is, from Rebekah Brooks to Piers Morgan. They still pull in the same direction.
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    He is busy at this time of year.
  - UncleSlacky 3y ago
    The good die young (see also: Henry Kissinger).
- CommanderData 3y ago
  The media Tory relationship is very understated. The media is very much the reason most of the British electorate will still vote Conservatives, even after years of scandals.
  - gadders 3y ago
    "Everyone who doesn't vote like me has been taken in by the media. Only people who agree with me are smart enough to see through it."
nradov 3y ago
If your own policies are so easily weaponized against you then maybe your policies aren't very good. Is it so hard to believe that regular voters might have ideological reasons for preferring a smaller, less intrusive government that imposes lower taxes? And blaming a hostile media is entirely too facile. Other politicians and parties have managed to win despite such obstacles by crafting messages that actually inspire voters.
- zht 3y ago
  Like brexit right
  - waihtis 3y ago
    whether that was the right choice will be seen in a 20 year timespan, given how soviet-like the direction EU has started taking looks like they might end up winners in this equation.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > given how soviet-like the direction EU has started taking looks Then they should have left in twenty years. Britain has managed one of the more drastic peacetime reductions in wealth, influence and stability of any rich country post WWII.
      - callamdelaney 3y ago
        That's objectively false.
        ben_w 3y ago
        The collapse of the USSR to Russia et al might count as a "rich" country doing worse. Can you name any others? Now I think about it, I suppose the loss of the British Empire itself might be one… after all, that was what got it excited to join the European project in the first place, though given national attitudes I'm sure the fact that the French boycotted it initially probably also helped sell the idea.
SenAnder 3y ago
> Labour actively avoid doing anything the Tories can spin to weaponise the electorate against them Except on immigration, where the roles are reversed [1]. That's why immigration to the UK increased post-Brexit, despite the referendum being an expression of anti-immigration sentiment [2]. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/25/world/europe/uk-migration.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/25/world/europe/uk-migration...
- gadders 3y ago
  Easier to import supportive voters than create them.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Immigrants don't get to vote for MPs until they've become citizens[0], that takes ages and is really expensive[1]. [0] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8985/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [1] https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-indefinite-leave-to-remain https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-indefinite-leave-to-rem... for the citizenship itself, plus double-paying for the NHS in the meantime: https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-much-pay https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-mu...
    - autoexec 3y ago
      Their kids will get to vote though
      - ben_w 3y ago
        They take even longer to any electoral payoff (even if it's positive), both because of the legal minimum age and because younger people tend to participate less in elections.
gadders 3y ago
The saying is in General Elections that Parties don't win them, Governments lose them. That being the case, sitting back and doing very little could be a sensible strategy.

phatfish 3y ago

That's what you get from an electoral system that reduces to a binary choice. Bad or worse, pick one.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hristov 3y ago

I beg to differ. It would be more correct to say: Labour: Try to copy the Torries in everything but intensity. Try to be slightly less awful than the Torries only to a degree necessary to convince the shell shocked and horrified voters to vote for you. This is how Labour has been operating since Tony Blair, with the minor diversion of Jeremy Corbyn. But Jeremy Corbyn was punished and dragged trough the mud so thoroughly that it is unlikely that him or anyone like him will lead Labour ever again. So we are back to Tony Blair Labour. This is all very similar to the relationship between the Republicans and Democrats in the US.

ben_w 3y ago
In my opinion, Corbyn (for all that I broadly like his policies), was somewhere between Johnson and Truss with regards to actual competency — he did after all loose a motion of no confidence by 197–40.