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In my experience with my elderly parents this absolutely won't work. If anything it's more complex since different things, are now hidden in one magic box. She

In my experience with my elderly parents this absolutely won't work. If anything it's more complex since different things, are now hidden in one magic box. She probably won't understand that e.g. Netflix and Hulu are different things. Or how to navigate back if some app gets stuck somewhere.... Also at some point there will be an update of some part of this that breaks everything.

drewcoo 3y ago
This. This resonates with me helping family members use technology. IMHO, the problem is that our ideas of discoverability and even our notions of UI from Xerox Parc are based on models for children and not on models for the elderly. People with life experiences typically want things that behave like what they know. I hope the way we design software changes as the population ages.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >I hope the way we design software changes as the population ages. I'd be happy if we could just figure out how to make software reliable and performant again. Most of it is a horror-show, and only looks any good at all because computers are so fast and many of the underlying tools and infrastructure parts have gotten really good (i.e., server hardware is ridiculously fast, the Linux OS running on most servers is supremely reliable for such a complex system that needs to support a myriad array of hardware from different vendors, but the CRUD software written to run on top of this stack is hacked-together garbage.)
- Thlom 3y ago
  My mother in law has an apple TV. Most of the time it just works, but sometimes Netflix or whatever just decides to log out and then I have to help her log back in. Another day an app froze and had to be force closed. She doesn't understand that the Apple TV is the box under her TV or that the apps are computer programs. It's just the TV for her. So after several hours of no TV she told me the TV didn't work. I came, hold the menu button for 3 seconds and then it worked again. Short story: When it works it's no problem. She can navigate between netflix and other streaming services, but once something freeze or she has to log in or whatever she is lost. My dad is a little bit better, but he has problems understanding accounts and logins. Using your e-mail address as username is actually confusing for older folks.
  - Animats 3y ago
    > I came, hold the menu button for 3 seconds and then it worked again. And where did we ever get "really long press" as an user interface concept? Maybe for maintenance functions on things with one button, but on something with multiple controls?
    - skydhash 3y ago
      Because the designers thinks that having multiple buttons is bad. But you still need context menus.
    - joseda-hg 3y ago
      This is just a hunch, but maybe as as way to keep "weird" stuff as something outside the mind of the less savy If there is a dedicated easy to press "change something" button it WILL get pressed, "really long press(es)" are hidden enough that they might not be (Even if clearly labeled, people still think "techwiz" even if all you do is read the print and see that the button had another function)
      - Animats 3y ago
        The previous generation of that was the tiny hole where you pushed in the end of an unbent paper clip to reach the hard reset button. Now, nobody has paper clips handy.
- Kaibeezy 3y ago
  I’ll be old pretty soon, but I’m used to crap like usernames and passwords, and needing to log in, update, reboot, juggle remotes, etc. I can’t imagine losing my sense of that paradigm. My Silent Generation (pre-Boomers) parents struggled with these from before they were as old as I am now, never really got it, and are shedding device functionality daily. “My iPhone is broken again!” “Send over the TV repairman.”
- agent327 3y ago
  As someone who has worked with windows, mice, menu bars, etc. all his life, I hope the way we design software WILL NOT change as I age. I am _happy_ with old-fashioned menu bars listing all the options that are available to me, using words I can read and comprehend. What good is it to have a 'hamburger menu' if you are on a 4K screen, and all the space to the left of that menu is wasted on a vast emptiness (looking angrily at you, Thunderbird!)? I don't want incomprehensible icons everywhere. If you want those, why not just mark everything in Chinese? Chinese characters are not harder to comprehend than the unimaginative collection of spheres, wavy lines, dots, etc. that we get now, and at least you learn a new language while attempting to learn to work with the app!
  - edg5000 3y ago
    If you are on Linux, try Evolution instead of Thunderbird if you want a good UI. It has a modern UI, but not a "modern" UI, get it?
- TheCapeGreek 3y ago
  On the one hand I get this. But on the other hand... assuming no actual cognitive issues like dementia, why do we not actually just expect our elders to actually try and learn and figure out how things work? I suppose that's partly also a question of how learning is affected in old age. In other words, are elderly people physically incapable of adapting?
  - MandieD 3y ago
    Because your great aunt will diligently learn how to take photos and later send them to you, but then some clever young designer goes and moves the buttons around and adds some "smart" reorganization, and now she can't find that photo she took of that weird-looking spot on her basement wall the other day, and when she stumbles upon it again, the process you painstakingly trained her on to send it to you no longer works. So her interest in re-learning how to do this is diminished, because she rightfully no longer trusts that it won't change yet again. Constantly shifting UIs undermine user trust, especially for users who are further from peak learning years. My three year old, of course, worked out how to navigate around my photos despite my never handing him my phone, and even discovered a feature I didn't know existed. Adaptation is often slower as you age - I can see this a bit in myself now that I'm past 40. I have to more consciously learn new things than I did 20 years ago.
chpatrick 3y ago
I would agree... Better something primitive and "less convenient" that they're familiar with than learning to operate something completely new at 94. Much more so if they have dementia.

drewcoo 3y ago

This. This resonates with me helping family members use technology. IMHO, the problem is that our ideas of discoverability and even our notions of UI from Xerox Parc are based on models for children and not on models for the elderly. People with life experiences typically want things that behave like what they know. I hope the way we design software changes as the population ages.

shiroiuma 3y ago
>I hope the way we design software changes as the population ages. I'd be happy if we could just figure out how to make software reliable and performant again. Most of it is a horror-show, and only looks any good at all because computers are so fast and many of the underlying tools and infrastructure parts have gotten really good (i.e., server hardware is ridiculously fast, the Linux OS running on most servers is supremely reliable for such a complex system that needs to support a myriad array of hardware from different vendors, but the CRUD software written to run on top of this stack is hacked-together garbage.)
Thlom 3y ago
My mother in law has an apple TV. Most of the time it just works, but sometimes Netflix or whatever just decides to log out and then I have to help her log back in. Another day an app froze and had to be force closed. She doesn't understand that the Apple TV is the box under her TV or that the apps are computer programs. It's just the TV for her. So after several hours of no TV she told me the TV didn't work. I came, hold the menu button for 3 seconds and then it worked again. Short story: When it works it's no problem. She can navigate between netflix and other streaming services, but once something freeze or she has to log in or whatever she is lost. My dad is a little bit better, but he has problems understanding accounts and logins. Using your e-mail address as username is actually confusing for older folks.
- Animats 3y ago
  > I came, hold the menu button for 3 seconds and then it worked again. And where did we ever get "really long press" as an user interface concept? Maybe for maintenance functions on things with one button, but on something with multiple controls?
  - skydhash 3y ago
    Because the designers thinks that having multiple buttons is bad. But you still need context menus.
  - joseda-hg 3y ago
    This is just a hunch, but maybe as as way to keep "weird" stuff as something outside the mind of the less savy If there is a dedicated easy to press "change something" button it WILL get pressed, "really long press(es)" are hidden enough that they might not be (Even if clearly labeled, people still think "techwiz" even if all you do is read the print and see that the button had another function)
    - Animats 3y ago
      The previous generation of that was the tiny hole where you pushed in the end of an unbent paper clip to reach the hard reset button. Now, nobody has paper clips handy.
Kaibeezy 3y ago
I’ll be old pretty soon, but I’m used to crap like usernames and passwords, and needing to log in, update, reboot, juggle remotes, etc. I can’t imagine losing my sense of that paradigm. My Silent Generation (pre-Boomers) parents struggled with these from before they were as old as I am now, never really got it, and are shedding device functionality daily. “My iPhone is broken again!” “Send over the TV repairman.”
agent327 3y ago
As someone who has worked with windows, mice, menu bars, etc. all his life, I hope the way we design software WILL NOT change as I age. I am _happy_ with old-fashioned menu bars listing all the options that are available to me, using words I can read and comprehend. What good is it to have a 'hamburger menu' if you are on a 4K screen, and all the space to the left of that menu is wasted on a vast emptiness (looking angrily at you, Thunderbird!)? I don't want incomprehensible icons everywhere. If you want those, why not just mark everything in Chinese? Chinese characters are not harder to comprehend than the unimaginative collection of spheres, wavy lines, dots, etc. that we get now, and at least you learn a new language while attempting to learn to work with the app!
- edg5000 3y ago
  If you are on Linux, try Evolution instead of Thunderbird if you want a good UI. It has a modern UI, but not a "modern" UI, get it?
TheCapeGreek 3y ago
On the one hand I get this. But on the other hand... assuming no actual cognitive issues like dementia, why do we not actually just expect our elders to actually try and learn and figure out how things work? I suppose that's partly also a question of how learning is affected in old age. In other words, are elderly people physically incapable of adapting?
- MandieD 3y ago
  Because your great aunt will diligently learn how to take photos and later send them to you, but then some clever young designer goes and moves the buttons around and adds some "smart" reorganization, and now she can't find that photo she took of that weird-looking spot on her basement wall the other day, and when she stumbles upon it again, the process you painstakingly trained her on to send it to you no longer works. So her interest in re-learning how to do this is diminished, because she rightfully no longer trusts that it won't change yet again. Constantly shifting UIs undermine user trust, especially for users who are further from peak learning years. My three year old, of course, worked out how to navigate around my photos despite my never handing him my phone, and even discovered a feature I didn't know existed. Adaptation is often slower as you age - I can see this a bit in myself now that I'm past 40. I have to more consciously learn new things than I did 20 years ago.

chpatrick 3y ago

I would agree... Better something primitive and "less convenient" that they're familiar with than learning to operate something completely new at 94. Much more so if they have dementia.