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The question is how Transport for London is such an inexcusable dumpster fire. I'm sorry London, but your public transit is the most expensive I've ever encount

The question is how Transport for London is such an inexcusable dumpster fire. I'm sorry London, but your public transit is the most expensive I've ever encountered and the least efficient public transit system I've encountered outside of the United States. It generally gets you where you need to go, but often via roundabout routes. Both buses and trains are often delayed and sometimes don't arrive at all, so you best not be in a hurry. Trains are so expensive that a car ride is usually more cost effective, even with the congestion fees.

M2Ys4U 3y ago
>The question is how Transport for London is such an inexcusable dumpster fire. I'm sorry London, but your public transit is the most expensive I've ever encountered and the least efficient public transit system I've encountered outside of the United States. Definitely don't try and use public transport anywhere else in England then!
tablloyd 3y ago
The maximum daily cap for an adult from zone 1 - 9 is around £21. It will categorically not be cheaper than using a car to use TFL transport within London. I think you may be confusing TFL services with national rail services.
- starlevel003 3y ago
  In practice a massive majority of people will be within Zone 6 at the furthest, where the daily cap is £14.90.
reedf1 3y ago
It is expensive because it pays for itself through fares, as I understand it this is quite rare at a global level, recovering the most of all of Europe, and much more than anywhere in NA.(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio)
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Seems like there's room for a fee cut there since they're net positive. Also public transit is a universal benefit service so IMO it makes sense for it to not be fully funded by fares alone. That structure is also a regressive tax unless fares are prorated for poorer users.
  - jaymzcampbell 3y ago
    I wouldn't count on it, the current government have been giving Tfl a kicking on arguably ideological grounds (referring to our mayor, who I think on past statements would broadly agree with you). Bit hard to make such cuts and push improvements when you're on the rack. > TfL is unique compared to other transport authorities in the world in that it is mostly dependent on fares for its income. This is largely down to the fact that the Government took the decision, in 2015, to remove TfL's £700 million annual operating grant from April 2018 onwards... The Government’s punitive approach to TfL’s financial future not only jeopardises London’s economic recovery, but that of the country. Ministers know that investment in London’s transport system creates jobs and generates dividends for the rest of the country [1] https://www.london.gov.uk/tfl/tfl-funding-settlement-another-short-term-sticking-plaster https://www.london.gov.uk/tfl/tfl-funding-settlement-another...
    - rtkwe 3y ago
      UK politics astound me, you've got one of the better subways in the western world and the government is actively trying to kill it. Feels like everything since the Brexit referendum has been like a poorly coordinated orchestra trying to stop playing but it's going on for years.
      - switch007 3y ago
        Tories hate poor people. People think that’s hyperbole and inflammatory but it’s really not. Public transport is for “poor” people. Ergo, public transport isn’t important Plus at the moment they’re trying their best to leave the country in a state that for which they can spend years heavily criticising the next government (which will likely be the opposition) They’re reallocating funds to improve motoring in a vote buying spree too
lambdas 3y ago
Eh? How? 15 quid for the congestion charge, (and potentially £12.50 for ULEZ if you don’t meet the requirements). And that’ll get you infinite journeys from zone 1-6, (£14.90 daily cap for that distance with oyster). That same journey by car, if we count fuel (average of 52mpg and 162p per litre of diesel) - it’ll cost you ~£5 each way from Epping to Tottenham Court Road. So £25/potentially £37.50 with ULEZ vs £14.90. And then I hope you have parking space paid for you in zone 1…
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- NeoTar 3y ago
  And you haven't included some other costs of ownership of car - insurance, maintenance, purchase price/depreciation...
NoboruWataya 3y ago
Interesting to hear this perspective, usually I just hear people fawning over TfL. FWIW, TfL has been dealing with funding crises for years. I believe it is far less subsidised than public transit systems in other major cities. There was talk a while ago about TfL officially going into a state of "managed decline", where the priority would be attempting to mitigate the impact of funding shortfalls on service levels. Like, that was a phrase used publicly at the highest levels. I don't know if they ever technically activated that scenario but they have been on the brink financially at least since Covid. As for the specific criticisms, I mostly use the tube which is probably the best of the TfL services. I am on the Northern line which is super frequent and reliable so I can't complain. The hub and spoke model does mean it's a pain getting from one non-central area to another non-central area. Buses are better for that but they do have issues with delays in my experience. I moved here from a city with notoriously awful public transit so to me it's great, but I guess there are probably cities in continental Europe with far superior systems. Honestly though, it's 2023 and I still need to buy paper tickets for the Paris metro...
- jaymzcampbell 3y ago
  In terms of the hub-spoke issue (this used to pain me when my friend lived 15 mins by car away - but 1.5hrs by train as I had to go into central and all the way back out) - the SuperLoop[1] is in some way aimed to attempt to address that by providing dedicated express bus routes on the outer ring of London. 4 out of 10 of the proposed routes have come online by virtue of renaming previously existing express routes. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/superloop https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/superloop
  - vidarh 3y ago
    I wish they'd do something similar with trains, maybe a bit further out. London badly need to shift the focus on transport upgrades in the centre further out to induce demand further out. You'd get far more bang for the buck. Instead it's all reactive, and keeps inducing more demand where you can least afford further upgrades. There's a whole lot of existing track that could serve as the basis to make it viable to commute without going via central London between a belt of commuter towns outside of, or on the boundaries of, London that are in far better positions to handle "cheap growth". My pet example, largely because I live in Croydon and a past employer wanted to relocate the office from the centre to Guildford, is Guildford to Croydon. Both have fairly large centres and scope for significant increases in density near their transit hubs. There are several viable routes direct between them, but the shortest, potentially fastest routes along existing rails only have a smattering of trains that go the whole distance, as part of trains providing some basic level of service to intermediate stations. The current fastest routes you can depend on for commutes are both significant detours North to Clapham or South to Redhill. The most direct routes via Epsom and Leatherhead are few enough or stop enough that they are almost never worth considering. Committing to maintaining commuter-level direct services between bigger towns that already has track connecting them in an outer loop, or arc at least, would do a lot to make it more attractive for companies to consider moving out, and pulling demand out with it and offload the centre. My boss mentioned earlier had to abandon his plan to move the company in part because a large portion of his staff would walk over the extra commute - for me it'd increase the average commute from an already tedious one hour to 1h30 -, but for many of us it wouldn't take much longer if only there were direct connections instead of the hub-spoke.
dukeyukey 3y ago
That isn't my experience at all, and I've used public transit in: * Paris * Amsterdam * Brussels * Berlin * Vienna * Budapest And probably some others I'm missing. TfL isn't as special as some people think, but it's still pretty damn good.
- jruohonen 3y ago
  Tokyo beats them all and they didn't have an app.

M2Ys4U 3y ago

>The question is how Transport for London is such an inexcusable dumpster fire. I'm sorry London, but your public transit is the most expensive I've ever encountered and the least efficient public transit system I've encountered outside of the United States. Definitely don't try and use public transport anywhere else in England then!

tablloyd 3y ago

The maximum daily cap for an adult from zone 1 - 9 is around £21. It will categorically not be cheaper than using a car to use TFL transport within London. I think you may be confusing TFL services with national rail services.

starlevel003 3y ago
In practice a massive majority of people will be within Zone 6 at the furthest, where the daily cap is £14.90.

reedf1 3y ago

It is expensive because it pays for itself through fares, as I understand it this is quite rare at a global level, recovering the most of all of Europe, and much more than anywhere in NA.(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio)

rtkwe 3y ago
Seems like there's room for a fee cut there since they're net positive. Also public transit is a universal benefit service so IMO it makes sense for it to not be fully funded by fares alone. That structure is also a regressive tax unless fares are prorated for poorer users.
- jaymzcampbell 3y ago
  I wouldn't count on it, the current government have been giving Tfl a kicking on arguably ideological grounds (referring to our mayor, who I think on past statements would broadly agree with you). Bit hard to make such cuts and push improvements when you're on the rack. > TfL is unique compared to other transport authorities in the world in that it is mostly dependent on fares for its income. This is largely down to the fact that the Government took the decision, in 2015, to remove TfL's £700 million annual operating grant from April 2018 onwards... The Government’s punitive approach to TfL’s financial future not only jeopardises London’s economic recovery, but that of the country. Ministers know that investment in London’s transport system creates jobs and generates dividends for the rest of the country [1] https://www.london.gov.uk/tfl/tfl-funding-settlement-another-short-term-sticking-plaster https://www.london.gov.uk/tfl/tfl-funding-settlement-another...
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    UK politics astound me, you've got one of the better subways in the western world and the government is actively trying to kill it. Feels like everything since the Brexit referendum has been like a poorly coordinated orchestra trying to stop playing but it's going on for years.
    - switch007 3y ago
      Tories hate poor people. People think that’s hyperbole and inflammatory but it’s really not. Public transport is for “poor” people. Ergo, public transport isn’t important Plus at the moment they’re trying their best to leave the country in a state that for which they can spend years heavily criticising the next government (which will likely be the opposition) They’re reallocating funds to improve motoring in a vote buying spree too

lambdas 3y ago

Eh? How? 15 quid for the congestion charge, (and potentially £12.50 for ULEZ if you don’t meet the requirements). And that’ll get you infinite journeys from zone 1-6, (£14.90 daily cap for that distance with oyster). That same journey by car, if we count fuel (average of 52mpg and 162p per litre of diesel) - it’ll cost you ~£5 each way from Epping to Tottenham Court Road. So £25/potentially £37.50 with ULEZ vs £14.90. And then I hope you have parking space paid for you in zone 1…

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
NeoTar 3y ago
And you haven't included some other costs of ownership of car - insurance, maintenance, purchase price/depreciation...

NoboruWataya 3y ago

Interesting to hear this perspective, usually I just hear people fawning over TfL. FWIW, TfL has been dealing with funding crises for years. I believe it is far less subsidised than public transit systems in other major cities. There was talk a while ago about TfL officially going into a state of "managed decline", where the priority would be attempting to mitigate the impact of funding shortfalls on service levels. Like, that was a phrase used publicly at the highest levels. I don't know if they ever technically activated that scenario but they have been on the brink financially at least since Covid. As for the specific criticisms, I mostly use the tube which is probably the best of the TfL services. I am on the Northern line which is super frequent and reliable so I can't complain. The hub and spoke model does mean it's a pain getting from one non-central area to another non-central area. Buses are better for that but they do have issues with delays in my experience. I moved here from a city with notoriously awful public transit so to me it's great, but I guess there are probably cities in continental Europe with far superior systems. Honestly though, it's 2023 and I still need to buy paper tickets for the Paris metro...

jaymzcampbell 3y ago
In terms of the hub-spoke issue (this used to pain me when my friend lived 15 mins by car away - but 1.5hrs by train as I had to go into central and all the way back out) - the SuperLoop[1] is in some way aimed to attempt to address that by providing dedicated express bus routes on the outer ring of London. 4 out of 10 of the proposed routes have come online by virtue of renaming previously existing express routes. [1] https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/superloop https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/superloop
- vidarh 3y ago
  I wish they'd do something similar with trains, maybe a bit further out. London badly need to shift the focus on transport upgrades in the centre further out to induce demand further out. You'd get far more bang for the buck. Instead it's all reactive, and keeps inducing more demand where you can least afford further upgrades. There's a whole lot of existing track that could serve as the basis to make it viable to commute without going via central London between a belt of commuter towns outside of, or on the boundaries of, London that are in far better positions to handle "cheap growth". My pet example, largely because I live in Croydon and a past employer wanted to relocate the office from the centre to Guildford, is Guildford to Croydon. Both have fairly large centres and scope for significant increases in density near their transit hubs. There are several viable routes direct between them, but the shortest, potentially fastest routes along existing rails only have a smattering of trains that go the whole distance, as part of trains providing some basic level of service to intermediate stations. The current fastest routes you can depend on for commutes are both significant detours North to Clapham or South to Redhill. The most direct routes via Epsom and Leatherhead are few enough or stop enough that they are almost never worth considering. Committing to maintaining commuter-level direct services between bigger towns that already has track connecting them in an outer loop, or arc at least, would do a lot to make it more attractive for companies to consider moving out, and pulling demand out with it and offload the centre. My boss mentioned earlier had to abandon his plan to move the company in part because a large portion of his staff would walk over the extra commute - for me it'd increase the average commute from an already tedious one hour to 1h30 -, but for many of us it wouldn't take much longer if only there were direct connections instead of the hub-spoke.

dukeyukey 3y ago

That isn't my experience at all, and I've used public transit in: * Paris * Amsterdam * Brussels * Berlin * Vienna * Budapest And probably some others I'm missing. TfL isn't as special as some people think, but it's still pretty damn good.

jruohonen 3y ago
Tokyo beats them all and they didn't have an app.