4 ms·

I think "we need to feel useful" is absolutely a cultural thing, or at least how we define what "useful" is cultural. Again, the monks believe they live rich l

I think "we need to feel useful" is absolutely a cultural thing, or at least how we define what "useful" is cultural. Again, the monks believe they live rich lives without being "useful" by North American standards, that's certainly a cultural thing. In North America our culture strongly believes a person's value is linked to their usefulness. That's not up for debate really. I mean you can try to argue it's not, but honestly look around. Look at what value we place on people who are homeless, addicts, crippled, blind, deaf, or hell, even someone who is just unemployed. We look down on them heavily. We judge them as having lower value because they are less useful. Even look at the original comment and the disdain for "useless lumps" This attitude doesn't exist everywhere. Don't try and say it's not cultural.

robertlagrant 3y ago
> Don't try and say it's not cultural. You seem to have only one counterexample: monks. Why would you assume that their highly unusual replacement of this by devotion to God is the less cultural option?
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Alright, how about Ancient Greek philosophers?
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Similarly unusual, no? Compared to the number of people who aren't that? Of course a society that works to survive (which is to say: all of them) can sustain a few people not working. But that's not because they're culturally advanced people in a world of backward thinkers. It's because they were few.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Twitch streamers and TikTok influencers
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Well, they're actually part of modern culture, so I don't think they can be a counterexample from history :-)
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        Ornamental hermits. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27734627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27734627
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        They were amazing! And considered useful by their land owners.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  Monks are just an example that very plainly demonstrates that a person's "worth" is a cultural determination, not an objective fact of human existence. Do you need me to go and list all of the ways every culture on the planet has different views on the value of an individual? I don't have that kind of time.
nradov 3y ago
In the real world we have limited resources. Some societies are wealthy enough to sustain a few freeloaders without causing much trouble, but there are limits. If no one does useful work then we all freeze and starve. It's interesting to look at the social and political divisions that have been growing in Israel over the role of the Haredi (ultra-orthodox). The men are exempt from conscription and mostly don't work for wages. Instead they focus on religious study and survive on welfare and donations. More secular Israelis tend to resent the Haredi as useless lumps who don't do their fair share of work.
brightlancer 3y ago
> Again, the monks believe they live rich lives without being "useful" by North American standards, that's certainly a cultural thing. That's begging the question. Historically, nearly all societies valued work because work was necessary; they valued being "useful". Historically, nearly all societies also specialized, moving some folks away from directly producing/ harvesting food and to other jobs like building tools; they also produced art, philosophy, religion, and other things which don't appear to be "useful" but _empirically are_. > Look at what value we place on people who are homeless, addicts, crippled, blind, deaf, or hell, even someone who is just unemployed. > We look down on them heavily. We judge them as having lower value because they are less useful. No. WTF, no. Most people who are "unemployed" _were_ employed and _will soon be_ employed. Most people who are homeless had a home and will soon have a home. These are usually short term circumstances. The folks who are long-term unemployed or long-term homeless are a completely different category: lots of substance abuse, mental issues they refuse to treat, refusal to adhere to basic societal norms, etc. But if someone improves themselves, wow, do folks love a comeback story. I think that's almost universal across societies, but I'm happy to see evidence otherwise. As for physically handicapped folks, plenty of them work for money. Some of them can't _but they want to_. And they find other ways to be useful to their families, their community, their society. I don't see disdain for that. But that one is definitely cultural. Historically, most societies would "put them out of their misery". Still true in Canada. > Even look at the original comment and the disdain for "useless lumps" > This attitude doesn't exist everywhere. Generally, yes, it does. See everything above.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> Don't try and say it's not cultural. You seem to have only one counterexample: monks. Why would you assume that their highly unusual replacement of this by devotion to God is the less cultural option?

Apocryphon 3y ago
Alright, how about Ancient Greek philosophers?
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Similarly unusual, no? Compared to the number of people who aren't that? Of course a society that works to survive (which is to say: all of them) can sustain a few people not working. But that's not because they're culturally advanced people in a world of backward thinkers. It's because they were few.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Twitch streamers and TikTok influencers
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Well, they're actually part of modern culture, so I don't think they can be a counterexample from history :-)
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        Ornamental hermits. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27734627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27734627
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        They were amazing! And considered useful by their land owners.
bluefirebrand 3y ago
Monks are just an example that very plainly demonstrates that a person's "worth" is a cultural determination, not an objective fact of human existence. Do you need me to go and list all of the ways every culture on the planet has different views on the value of an individual? I don't have that kind of time.

nradov 3y ago

In the real world we have limited resources. Some societies are wealthy enough to sustain a few freeloaders without causing much trouble, but there are limits. If no one does useful work then we all freeze and starve. It's interesting to look at the social and political divisions that have been growing in Israel over the role of the Haredi (ultra-orthodox). The men are exempt from conscription and mostly don't work for wages. Instead they focus on religious study and survive on welfare and donations. More secular Israelis tend to resent the Haredi as useless lumps who don't do their fair share of work.

brightlancer 3y ago

> Again, the monks believe they live rich lives without being "useful" by North American standards, that's certainly a cultural thing. That's begging the question. Historically, nearly all societies valued work because work was necessary; they valued being "useful". Historically, nearly all societies also specialized, moving some folks away from directly producing/ harvesting food and to other jobs like building tools; they also produced art, philosophy, religion, and other things which don't appear to be "useful" but _empirically are_. > Look at what value we place on people who are homeless, addicts, crippled, blind, deaf, or hell, even someone who is just unemployed. > We look down on them heavily. We judge them as having lower value because they are less useful. No. WTF, no. Most people who are "unemployed" _were_ employed and _will soon be_ employed. Most people who are homeless had a home and will soon have a home. These are usually short term circumstances. The folks who are long-term unemployed or long-term homeless are a completely different category: lots of substance abuse, mental issues they refuse to treat, refusal to adhere to basic societal norms, etc. But if someone improves themselves, wow, do folks love a comeback story. I think that's almost universal across societies, but I'm happy to see evidence otherwise. As for physically handicapped folks, plenty of them work for money. Some of them can't _but they want to_. And they find other ways to be useful to their families, their community, their society. I don't see disdain for that. But that one is definitely cultural. Historically, most societies would "put them out of their misery". Still true in Canada. > Even look at the original comment and the disdain for "useless lumps" > This attitude doesn't exist everywhere. Generally, yes, it does. See everything above.