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>There are some cases where working hard/loyalty/etc can lead to outsized rewards People are so disillusioned to "hard work == comfortable life" that they migh

>There are some cases where working hard/loyalty/etc can lead to outsized rewards People are so disillusioned to "hard work == comfortable life" that they might not even recognize it when it's real, or be incredibly suspicious. There is also a separate, much bigger lesson in that if you make friends and/or play politics, you also don't have to work as hard and still get rewarded (sometimes massively). When you layer all of these facts, it's really hard to sign up to be a hard worker. It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
> When you layer all of these facts, it's really hard to sign up to be a hard worker. It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it. It is very easy to become extremely bitter when you're being lectured by someone who makes more in a month than you do in a year about "hard work" Especially when you know their job is basically answering emails, giving a presentation once in a while, and golf trips with customers.
- johnny99k 3y ago
  Do you really think that's ALL they do? My manager (who is the director of engineering of the company) does what you are describing and it may seem like a no-work job. However, he also: -manages multiple, large, multi-year projects across multiple time zones -is a filter for the shit that rains down from upper-management (the most important role of a manager) -if any of these projects fail, he gets blamed (and most likely fired)
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Okay, but imagine another Director of Engineering who - Is responsible for managing large multi-year projects across multiple timezones and basically offloads all of his responsibilities to his direct reports and just asks for status reports now and then - Is not just not filtering the shit from above but is also a source of shit from above - diffuses blame downwards instead of taking any for himself, cuts people under him and is never disciplined when projects fail. He makes as much or more than the guy you report to. Who holds him accountable? His other buddies in upper management? Maybe eventually, but let's be real here. If he ever does get fired he gets a golden parachute and worms his way in at another company in no time. Maybe this isn't true at the middle manager-y layer, but it's definitely a pattern we've seen plenty of examples of with executives and other upper management types.
    - johnny99k 3y ago
      I have had co-workers that got paid the same amount as me and did much less (and knew less). This happens with any job and is not exclusive to management. This sounds like /antiwork fan fiction.
      - lazide 3y ago
        It’s often ‘I killed myself making everything perfect, and that asshole didn’t even say thanks!’. Some bosses encourage it, some bosses try to discourage it (and fail), some bosses don’t even notice. Been on both sides. In the end, the ‘hero’ is usually the one that is the actual problem, unfortunately, and can’t stop.
    - lazide 3y ago
      The accountability comes from the people under him leaving/actual poor results, or doing poor work because of burnout, resulting in poor results. If it works well enough though, he’s fine. A lot of folks don’t realize their value when they’re burning themselves out making your case look good, which enables it, and not even getting paid for the effort. Those people often rant the exact same way you are, while not changing their behavior. They also tend to be the most angry when their part is make clear though. So I guess it’s a good thing it’s at least semi anonymous here?
      - zmgsabst 3y ago
        How is other people suffering him experiencing accountability?
        lazide 3y ago
        What does suffering have to do with accountability, if everything important keeps working, no laws are broken, and the org meets its metrics? If they leave and things blow up, then that impacts things no? Accountability is about ensuring someone gets held to account for the results of their actions. Accountability doesn’t mean ‘they pay because I’m unhappy’. It means ‘if they break the law, they get punished’. Or ‘if they break the org or don’t deliver results their bosses want they get fired.’. Being a dick of a boss isn’t illegal. Burning people out (when they do it voluntarily) isn’t illegal. Things they may be doing that cause that tend to be purely subjective and individual, and many people will disagree it’s even happening! Punishing them for those may be vengeance, or revenge, lashing out, or whatever. And since no one can make someone happy (or unhappy), and there isn’t even an objective measure of it, society generally doesn’t care about that legally. What would accountability mean in those cases then? Going to jail because people don’t like you as a boss? Making a hostile work environment is already against the law and actionable, if it can be proven. It’s a reasonably high bar though, and most environments people are pissed about around here likely don’t meet it. It’s up to everyone individually to make those decisions and tradeoffs. They’re accountable for the results of continuing to work somewhere, or not, for instance. It’s a two way street. In the sense of; “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France It may not be great, but other alternatives are so prone to abuse and shittiness that I personally haven’t seen many better alternatives.
  - Raidion 3y ago
    I think that's what's weird about it. You're not paid for your work, you're paid for the value your work is expected create (although of course there are inefficiencies). Someone with experience in a higher level role can make it look easy, and it is objectively 'easier' than a lot of jobs. 'Easy' discounts the work someone has often had to do to get into those roles, but it also highlights how privileged some of these people are. Having a family that prioritizes education, the education actually being good, having the ability to focus on studies instead of needing money or to take care of family, the ability to go to college without worrying about finances... All these are huge levers that get people into these director+ roles, and those are things that aren't available to the wide swath of humanity. People do amazing things despite these challenges, but it's clearly harder to do.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    This was basically my reaction when reading that post. There are definitely crappy managers who don't bring much to the table, but a good manager does those same things but is a lever for their teams (and are invaluable as a result).
- stratigos 3y ago
  "basically answering emails" is usually also done within a context of subject matter expertise and long term career experience. This is akin to saying "programmers just bang on a keyboard and clock out at the end of the day, easy!"
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    When you're above a certain level you are not the subject matter expert anymore, you hire subject matter experts and have them give you options. Maybe this isn't true in companies you've worked for, but it's still pretty common for "engineering manager" to be a title held by an MBA with no engineering knowledge.
    - pierat 3y ago
      I had a job where the systems engineering team was lead by a person who had an MBA, and didn't even know what an IP address was. And they were making customer decisions like "This deployment MUST happen tonight no matter what". I plainly said "I will do my best to do the deployments, but if deployment scripts fail, I will NOT risk customer data to complete this task". The CTO overheard this dictate by our manager. The CTO backed me 100%. And, she was the previous syseng for our dept, and worked up the ranks from helpdesk->syseng->cto. Fucking sharp lady.
    - Our_Benefactors 3y ago
      I personally have never had a manager who did not at one time or another demonstrate detailed and outside technical knowledge. Maybe I am an extremely lucky outlier but I’ve yet to encounter the mythical MBA Engineering manager. Maybe things have changed over time?
      - confidantlake 3y ago
        I didn't either until I did. I think it is more common outside of "tech" companies.
- strikelaserclaw 3y ago
  people who've always been rich won't have much issue making money without working hard but for people who need to move up the ladder, i'm afraid without working hard you just can't make that leap. You have to work hard and work smart, optimizing for a long term success. Too many people forget about the second part of the equation which is optimizing for long term success. You optimize long term success by constantly learning, creating and using that to leverage into positions with more responsibility / higher impact.
johnny99k 3y ago
"When you layer all of these facts, it's really hard to sign up to be a hard worker. It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it." Play the game, get rewarded. I've been a hard worker my whole life, but I now limit my total output, so my employers don't expect me to over-work myself 100% of the time. Life becomes much easier after this. It also helps that I'm an hourly consultant. When the shit hits the fan and a company tries to force me to work nights and weekends to make a deadline that was a result of their incompetence/mis-management, they now have to think twice about it because it directly affect the budget.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it. For sure. A lot of HN went straight into STEM programs and then into STEM roles, and never had a chance to really do crappy jobs. I think of my brother's friend, who went straight to top tier tech school, then FAANG, than another FAANG. Nice guy, but he lives in a different universe and is painfully out of touch for anythign that doesn't involve hyperscalable infrastructure. I worked wayyyyyy harder in bartending, or retail, or the military than I ever did in any IT/DevOps gig. And in most cases in IT I get paid 4-5x more.
- bradlys 3y ago
  I’ll be the counterpoint and say that all the shit jobs I did were way easier than any tech jobs I’ve had. Working retail was boring but it was a joke in terms of stress or care. Working doing help desk IT work was similar. Same for other odd jobs I picked up. Then I joined startups, big tech, etc. all in SV and the stress is insanely high compared to anything else. The hours suck even when you’re an aggressive guy like I am about WLB - because I still have to spend hundreds of hours preparing for interviews every year. It’s mandatory to keep your compensation high and to avoid the new toxic boss you just got. I left a $1m+/yr job because the stress was too much. Experiences with tech is a wide gamut but my experience is one of it being a shit show. I have friends who get paid well and have good hours and a great work environment but I’ve never been in that side of being happy at my jobs. I keep joining shitty employers/teams - somewhat out of bad luck tbh.
  - monknomo 3y ago
    I'm curious - how do you choose a team or a job? I wonder if there is something you're looking for that correlates with stress, or if you're just unlucky
    - bradlys 3y ago
      There's very little choice involved. I interview with an assload of companies and go with whoever pays the most and/or whatever opportunity seems best for career growth. Genuinely, I am rather unlucky. I've talked to many peers and even for people who have interviewed for the same job as I had - I constantly go through a much more rigorous process than others. I had to interview with directors, principle engineers, follow up interviews, etc. in order to get my last job when all my peers just did a typical onsite (2 coding, 1 behavior, 1 system design) for the same role whereas I did that in addition to all this other stuff. Same job and role - no downleveling or anything.
itsoktocry 3y ago
>There is also a separate, much bigger lesson in that if you make friends and/or play politics, you also don't have to work as hard and still get rewarded (sometimes massively). Because there is more to success and life than "hard work". Who can blame people (with money) who are willing to pay extra to be around people they want to spend time with ("make friends")? There's a trope in the tech work that people should tolerate "angry nerds" because they are 10xers or whatever. Most of the real world doesn't operate that way.
mcpackieh 3y ago
Synthesis: Work hard at making friends and playing politics.

bluefirebrand 3y ago

> When you layer all of these facts, it's really hard to sign up to be a hard worker. It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it. It is very easy to become extremely bitter when you're being lectured by someone who makes more in a month than you do in a year about "hard work" Especially when you know their job is basically answering emails, giving a presentation once in a while, and golf trips with customers.

johnny99k 3y ago
Do you really think that's ALL they do? My manager (who is the director of engineering of the company) does what you are describing and it may seem like a no-work job. However, he also: -manages multiple, large, multi-year projects across multiple time zones -is a filter for the shit that rains down from upper-management (the most important role of a manager) -if any of these projects fail, he gets blamed (and most likely fired)
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  Okay, but imagine another Director of Engineering who - Is responsible for managing large multi-year projects across multiple timezones and basically offloads all of his responsibilities to his direct reports and just asks for status reports now and then - Is not just not filtering the shit from above but is also a source of shit from above - diffuses blame downwards instead of taking any for himself, cuts people under him and is never disciplined when projects fail. He makes as much or more than the guy you report to. Who holds him accountable? His other buddies in upper management? Maybe eventually, but let's be real here. If he ever does get fired he gets a golden parachute and worms his way in at another company in no time. Maybe this isn't true at the middle manager-y layer, but it's definitely a pattern we've seen plenty of examples of with executives and other upper management types.
  - johnny99k 3y ago
    I have had co-workers that got paid the same amount as me and did much less (and knew less). This happens with any job and is not exclusive to management. This sounds like /antiwork fan fiction.
    - lazide 3y ago
      It’s often ‘I killed myself making everything perfect, and that asshole didn’t even say thanks!’. Some bosses encourage it, some bosses try to discourage it (and fail), some bosses don’t even notice. Been on both sides. In the end, the ‘hero’ is usually the one that is the actual problem, unfortunately, and can’t stop.
  - lazide 3y ago
    The accountability comes from the people under him leaving/actual poor results, or doing poor work because of burnout, resulting in poor results. If it works well enough though, he’s fine. A lot of folks don’t realize their value when they’re burning themselves out making your case look good, which enables it, and not even getting paid for the effort. Those people often rant the exact same way you are, while not changing their behavior. They also tend to be the most angry when their part is make clear though. So I guess it’s a good thing it’s at least semi anonymous here?
    - zmgsabst 3y ago
      How is other people suffering him experiencing accountability?
      - lazide 3y ago
        What does suffering have to do with accountability, if everything important keeps working, no laws are broken, and the org meets its metrics? If they leave and things blow up, then that impacts things no? Accountability is about ensuring someone gets held to account for the results of their actions. Accountability doesn’t mean ‘they pay because I’m unhappy’. It means ‘if they break the law, they get punished’. Or ‘if they break the org or don’t deliver results their bosses want they get fired.’. Being a dick of a boss isn’t illegal. Burning people out (when they do it voluntarily) isn’t illegal. Things they may be doing that cause that tend to be purely subjective and individual, and many people will disagree it’s even happening! Punishing them for those may be vengeance, or revenge, lashing out, or whatever. And since no one can make someone happy (or unhappy), and there isn’t even an objective measure of it, society generally doesn’t care about that legally. What would accountability mean in those cases then? Going to jail because people don’t like you as a boss? Making a hostile work environment is already against the law and actionable, if it can be proven. It’s a reasonably high bar though, and most environments people are pissed about around here likely don’t meet it. It’s up to everyone individually to make those decisions and tradeoffs. They’re accountable for the results of continuing to work somewhere, or not, for instance. It’s a two way street. In the sense of; “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France It may not be great, but other alternatives are so prone to abuse and shittiness that I personally haven’t seen many better alternatives.
- Raidion 3y ago
  I think that's what's weird about it. You're not paid for your work, you're paid for the value your work is expected create (although of course there are inefficiencies). Someone with experience in a higher level role can make it look easy, and it is objectively 'easier' than a lot of jobs. 'Easy' discounts the work someone has often had to do to get into those roles, but it also highlights how privileged some of these people are. Having a family that prioritizes education, the education actually being good, having the ability to focus on studies instead of needing money or to take care of family, the ability to go to college without worrying about finances... All these are huge levers that get people into these director+ roles, and those are things that aren't available to the wide swath of humanity. People do amazing things despite these challenges, but it's clearly harder to do.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  This was basically my reaction when reading that post. There are definitely crappy managers who don't bring much to the table, but a good manager does those same things but is a lever for their teams (and are invaluable as a result).
stratigos 3y ago
"basically answering emails" is usually also done within a context of subject matter expertise and long term career experience. This is akin to saying "programmers just bang on a keyboard and clock out at the end of the day, easy!"
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  When you're above a certain level you are not the subject matter expert anymore, you hire subject matter experts and have them give you options. Maybe this isn't true in companies you've worked for, but it's still pretty common for "engineering manager" to be a title held by an MBA with no engineering knowledge.
  - pierat 3y ago
    I had a job where the systems engineering team was lead by a person who had an MBA, and didn't even know what an IP address was. And they were making customer decisions like "This deployment MUST happen tonight no matter what". I plainly said "I will do my best to do the deployments, but if deployment scripts fail, I will NOT risk customer data to complete this task". The CTO overheard this dictate by our manager. The CTO backed me 100%. And, she was the previous syseng for our dept, and worked up the ranks from helpdesk->syseng->cto. Fucking sharp lady.
  - Our_Benefactors 3y ago
    I personally have never had a manager who did not at one time or another demonstrate detailed and outside technical knowledge. Maybe I am an extremely lucky outlier but I’ve yet to encounter the mythical MBA Engineering manager. Maybe things have changed over time?
    - confidantlake 3y ago
      I didn't either until I did. I think it is more common outside of "tech" companies.
strikelaserclaw 3y ago
people who've always been rich won't have much issue making money without working hard but for people who need to move up the ladder, i'm afraid without working hard you just can't make that leap. You have to work hard and work smart, optimizing for a long term success. Too many people forget about the second part of the equation which is optimizing for long term success. You optimize long term success by constantly learning, creating and using that to leverage into positions with more responsibility / higher impact.

johnny99k 3y ago

"When you layer all of these facts, it's really hard to sign up to be a hard worker. It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it." Play the game, get rewarded. I've been a hard worker my whole life, but I now limit my total output, so my employers don't expect me to over-work myself 100% of the time. Life becomes much easier after this. It also helps that I'm an hourly consultant. When the shit hits the fan and a company tries to force me to work nights and weekends to make a deadline that was a result of their incompetence/mis-management, they now have to think twice about it because it directly affect the budget.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> It feels more like punishment once you learn how easy the rich people have it. For sure. A lot of HN went straight into STEM programs and then into STEM roles, and never had a chance to really do crappy jobs. I think of my brother's friend, who went straight to top tier tech school, then FAANG, than another FAANG. Nice guy, but he lives in a different universe and is painfully out of touch for anythign that doesn't involve hyperscalable infrastructure. I worked wayyyyyy harder in bartending, or retail, or the military than I ever did in any IT/DevOps gig. And in most cases in IT I get paid 4-5x more.

bradlys 3y ago
I’ll be the counterpoint and say that all the shit jobs I did were way easier than any tech jobs I’ve had. Working retail was boring but it was a joke in terms of stress or care. Working doing help desk IT work was similar. Same for other odd jobs I picked up. Then I joined startups, big tech, etc. all in SV and the stress is insanely high compared to anything else. The hours suck even when you’re an aggressive guy like I am about WLB - because I still have to spend hundreds of hours preparing for interviews every year. It’s mandatory to keep your compensation high and to avoid the new toxic boss you just got. I left a $1m+/yr job because the stress was too much. Experiences with tech is a wide gamut but my experience is one of it being a shit show. I have friends who get paid well and have good hours and a great work environment but I’ve never been in that side of being happy at my jobs. I keep joining shitty employers/teams - somewhat out of bad luck tbh.
- monknomo 3y ago
  I'm curious - how do you choose a team or a job? I wonder if there is something you're looking for that correlates with stress, or if you're just unlucky
  - bradlys 3y ago
    There's very little choice involved. I interview with an assload of companies and go with whoever pays the most and/or whatever opportunity seems best for career growth. Genuinely, I am rather unlucky. I've talked to many peers and even for people who have interviewed for the same job as I had - I constantly go through a much more rigorous process than others. I had to interview with directors, principle engineers, follow up interviews, etc. in order to get my last job when all my peers just did a typical onsite (2 coding, 1 behavior, 1 system design) for the same role whereas I did that in addition to all this other stuff. Same job and role - no downleveling or anything.

itsoktocry 3y ago

>There is also a separate, much bigger lesson in that if you make friends and/or play politics, you also don't have to work as hard and still get rewarded (sometimes massively). Because there is more to success and life than "hard work". Who can blame people (with money) who are willing to pay extra to be around people they want to spend time with ("make friends")? There's a trope in the tech work that people should tolerate "angry nerds" because they are 10xers or whatever. Most of the real world doesn't operate that way.

mcpackieh 3y ago

Synthesis: Work hard at making friends and playing politics.