6 ms·

I really liked my windows phone. The colourful live tiles and the physical design were great. What it lacked was 3rd party apps.

zaxpr 3y ago
yes, windows phone UI and their basic apps were pretty great and easy to use for a none tech-savvy person. Lack of 3rd party apps actually provides a nice distraction-free experience. lol
generj 3y ago
I also deeply enjoyed my Nokia Lumia. They clearly took many design cues from Zune, which was another excellent product I loved that did not take off. I think if MS Phone had stuck it out a bit longer hybrid apps may have helped bring some developers in. It sounds like Nadella still doesn’t get it though. MSFT tried several times to “reinvent the category of computing between PCs, tablets, and phones” and none succeeded. Windows 8 UC targeting tablets and native apps was a disaster and ate up a lot of goodwill. With tablet PCs and netbooks Microsoft had the right idea too early and with poor technical implementation.
- doubled112 3y ago
  I liked mine too. Sometimes I think I was the only one, but now I know there were at least three of us. I had what I think was the lowest end Lumia at the time, a Lumia 520 maybe? It did what it did really well. The camera was surprisingly OK. The tiles meant I could see what I needed without tapping around. It was much more responsive than other phones in its price range from what I remember too.
  - mobilio 3y ago
    Wife here still using some Lumia 525 or 535 Dual-Sim. Only for calls, no messages or internet. Still works surprisingly great.
  - toast0 3y ago
    > I liked mine too. Sometimes I think I was the only one, but now I know there were at least three of us. I'm pretty sure there were hundreds of us; but maybe only tens. I don't think Microsoft understands how constantly churning the development framework impacts potential developers, because Windows is so big that developers will suffer through churn until they realize they should just stick to ancient methods that will continue to work. Windows Phone had no ancient methods, and important new OS features were tied to new frameworks anyway, but there wasn't enough users to encourage most developers to suffer through it. That they couldn't make Windows Mobile 10 work (well) on low end devices like the Lumia 520 is probably a mix of organizational and engineering failure, but either way, the push from Microsoft to build 'universal windows platform' apps that would only run on Windows Mobile 10 prompted developers to cut support for WP7 and WP8 in favor of WM10, even though WM10 never had more users than the earlier versions. Also, mobile Edge was soooooo much worse than mobile IE, woof. #totallynotstillbitter
  - Clamchop 3y ago
    I remember a lot of positive commentary on Windows Phone's UI and concepts. It was distinctive from iPhone and Android, which, with Android largely aping iOS, were pretty same-same, so it was a refreshing reinterpretation. And besides that, a third credible competitor was and still is welcome. I think you were far from alone in your disappointment watching it wither on the vine.
    - jinushaun 3y ago
      I owned a windows phone. No. It was bad. It had all the misguided UX problems of Windows 8, but in your pocket. Such bad usability. Given more time, I don’t think it would’ve gotten better based on other MS software offerings in 2023
- pathartl 3y ago
  I think he does get it, though. Windows 11 is the most touch friendly version of the OS to date. While Windows tablets aren't as common as say, the iPad, they're inherently more useful. I will say, they do need to get their heads out of their asses for MAUI.
brnt 3y ago
I am by no means a Windows fan (Linux only sinds 2003) but Windows Phone/mobile was (and is, I have one still) awesome. Snappy, no frills, yet feature complete. Pretty interoperable. Pretty. Pity it's over.
- chithanh 3y ago
  I remember that quite differently. Windows Phone 7 lacked many basic functions like Bluetooth file transfer, the audio player didn't support gapless playback, alarm clock could not turn on your phone (a staple Nokia feature), Internet Explorer was always behind in supporting web standards (and Microsoft did not allow other browser engines). WP7 didn't even support front cameras until Mango Update. The snappiness of apps was also hindered by network I/O in the UI thread (I mean wtf Microsoft). WP8 did some things better but it was too little, too late. Nokia at some point bitterly complained about Microsoft's inertia in getting important features implemented that Nokia needed in order to sell phones (besides the apps, but that is another whole can of worms). https://www.techspot.com/news/53405-microsofts-slow-development-of-windows-phone-frustrates-nokia.html https://www.techspot.com/news/53405-microsofts-slow-developm...
  - iforgotpassword 3y ago
    WP 7 is an entirely different story and not what people talk about when they say Windows Phone. It was a reskinned Windows CE because they wanted to release a product and 8 wasn't done yet.
    - chithanh 3y ago
      Microsoft had a Windows CE based smartphone OS at the time, namely Windows Mobile 6.5. Releasing WP7 as a short-lived and compatibility-breaking product with show-stopping deficiencies hurt them in a major way. And it is not that the WP8 release fixed everything that was wrong. Rather, it added to developer churn by switching to yet another API, it upset users because no WP7 phone could be upgraded to WP8 (except for the HTC HD2 which originally came with WM6.1), and it still didn't support any modern mobile web browsers. Then there was this strange limitation to only 720p screens and dual-core CPUs until WP8 GDR3. Or that you could not disable automatic screen rotation until that update. VPN support and the notification center came only with WP8.1.
Clamchop 3y ago
And it never got that ecosystem because of inscrutable mismanagement so scatterbrained and perplexing that I can't wait for the insider-tells-all book about this post-iPhone period at Microsoft that I assume will arrive in a decade or two. Zune, Phone, Surface, Windows 8, Windows RT, Bing, Cortana, Continuum, Project Astoria, I'm sure I'm forgetting. Apple and Google execs must have been amused.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  If you watch the Windows UI community talks on YouTube, at least on public channels, whoever is in charge doesn't seem to grasp how much all those rewrites killed the ecosystem, and they keep asking people to invest into WinUI/WinAppSDK, which not only is yet another rewrite, the tooling is a joke versus UWP. No wonder that Windows developer community decided to ignore whatever is related to WinUI, and focus on the stable technologies from the past.
  - Bootvis 3y ago
    Looking for some advice here. I’d be interested to develop simple GUI’s at work. I don’t have much experience of that. I have a license for VS2015 to maintain legacy VB and C++ but I think an upgrade could be arranged. I’m comfortable doing web dev but the browser remains limiting. In my situation, would learning native gui development be worthwhile or is it much easier to stick to websites and/or Electron?
    - tight-ship 3y ago
      Much easier to go with Electron. The choice is made for you. With native Windows, it's a dozen different solution and you waste timing playing future teller to imagine which one won't be abandoned in the future. At least with Electron you can reuse your skills with websites and it's pretty established now. Yes, it's not as fast but it's fast enough.
    - MattBDev 3y ago
      Using WinUI is really easy to do. Whether you're using WinUI 2.8 with UWP or WinUI 3. So native GUI development isn't difficult at all. XAML is similar to HTML in a lot of ways. If you have your mind set on web development and want a native GUI, you could go with React Native for Windows.
marklubi 3y ago
They tried with the 3rd party apps. I still have the developer phone they gave my company to port our app. It was a fun project, and the live tiles and flat style provided a lot of inspiration that resulted in the next version of our app for iOS and Android.
CSMastermind 3y ago
Lacking 3rd party apps was more of a symptom than a root cause in my opinion. Instead of being scrappy and trying to do whatever it took to gain marketshare in an area they were behind in they put a ton of limitations on their platform and it tanked adoption because the people who were willing to switch and try something new were by definition people who were going to be frustrated with this behavior. Things like not supporting multitasking or apps running in the background, blocking all exes from even being downloaded, not giving access to the underlaying file system, categorically blocking applications like video game emulators, restricting the ability to tether your phone, etc. Yes there wasn't third-party app support and yes their maps sucked but I think both of those would have been fixed over time if they didn't take a super arrogant big brother approach to the operating system. Example of what I'm talking about: http://i.imgur.com/JfFiuO4.png http://i.imgur.com/JfFiuO4.png
- chithanh 3y ago
  Microsoft both directly and indirectly turned app developers away from Windows Phone. Mobile games at the time were all OpenGL ES, which Microsoft refused to support in favor of Direct3D. Then there was Microsoft's perpetual need to start over. WM6.5 to WP7 broke app compatibility. WP7 to WP8, entirely new APIs. WP8 to WM10 there was UWP and Continuum, again forcing major rewrites if you wanted the new features. And finally how Microsoft treated the devs themselves. Ad-supported apps depended on Microsoft's ad network which was artificially kept alive by Microsoft injecting money for Xbox and Office ads. Once Microsoft stopped, the whole thing folded, leaving developers with a sudden loss of income. Developers from countries in Microsoft's 2nd tier additionally reported poor treatment and Kafka'esque bureaucracy preventing them from publishing apps: https://toshl.com/blog/why-publishing-on-the-windows-phone-marketplace-is-like-walking-barefoot-on-broken-glass/ https://toshl.com/blog/why-publishing-on-the-windows-phone-m... This is why I think the app situation would not have fixed itself over time, and MS efforts to ease transition like Project Islandwood were doomed from the start, because those fixed a problem but not the problem.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    There was no lack of games, Valve even needs to emulate DirectX and Win32, as Android developers couldn't care less about Steam Deck. The rewrites across multiple versions, that is what killed the desire to target the devices.
wvenable 3y ago
Just a couple of years ago, while cleaning up the office we found an old Windows Phone in a drawer and powered it up. I could see why some people liked it, it was actually very snappy/smooth compared with Android/iOS from the same era.
jkestner 3y ago
Loved my Lumia 800 and 925. I actually considered the limited ecosystem a feature because I didn't want to be more addicted to the phone. And the concept of glanceable icons and all the stuff intended to keep you from getting lost in apps—great to me, but unfortunately not great for the app business model. So it died.
skeeter2020 3y ago
the hardware was amazing - you'd get top of the line processor / screen and memory for a few hundred bucks. The OS was great too; so much nicer than the "pages of apps" on other phones, mostly because there never were pages of apps available on a windows phone :(
jacobgorm 3y ago
The Lumia 940 with Windows Phone is the only Microsoft product I have enjoyed using and that miss using even today. The iPhone launcher is still years behind it today.

zaxpr 3y ago

yes, windows phone UI and their basic apps were pretty great and easy to use for a none tech-savvy person. Lack of 3rd party apps actually provides a nice distraction-free experience. lol

generj 3y ago

I also deeply enjoyed my Nokia Lumia. They clearly took many design cues from Zune, which was another excellent product I loved that did not take off. I think if MS Phone had stuck it out a bit longer hybrid apps may have helped bring some developers in. It sounds like Nadella still doesn’t get it though. MSFT tried several times to “reinvent the category of computing between PCs, tablets, and phones” and none succeeded. Windows 8 UC targeting tablets and native apps was a disaster and ate up a lot of goodwill. With tablet PCs and netbooks Microsoft had the right idea too early and with poor technical implementation.

doubled112 3y ago
I liked mine too. Sometimes I think I was the only one, but now I know there were at least three of us. I had what I think was the lowest end Lumia at the time, a Lumia 520 maybe? It did what it did really well. The camera was surprisingly OK. The tiles meant I could see what I needed without tapping around. It was much more responsive than other phones in its price range from what I remember too.
- mobilio 3y ago
  Wife here still using some Lumia 525 or 535 Dual-Sim. Only for calls, no messages or internet. Still works surprisingly great.
- toast0 3y ago
  > I liked mine too. Sometimes I think I was the only one, but now I know there were at least three of us. I'm pretty sure there were hundreds of us; but maybe only tens. I don't think Microsoft understands how constantly churning the development framework impacts potential developers, because Windows is so big that developers will suffer through churn until they realize they should just stick to ancient methods that will continue to work. Windows Phone had no ancient methods, and important new OS features were tied to new frameworks anyway, but there wasn't enough users to encourage most developers to suffer through it. That they couldn't make Windows Mobile 10 work (well) on low end devices like the Lumia 520 is probably a mix of organizational and engineering failure, but either way, the push from Microsoft to build 'universal windows platform' apps that would only run on Windows Mobile 10 prompted developers to cut support for WP7 and WP8 in favor of WM10, even though WM10 never had more users than the earlier versions. Also, mobile Edge was soooooo much worse than mobile IE, woof. #totallynotstillbitter
- Clamchop 3y ago
  I remember a lot of positive commentary on Windows Phone's UI and concepts. It was distinctive from iPhone and Android, which, with Android largely aping iOS, were pretty same-same, so it was a refreshing reinterpretation. And besides that, a third credible competitor was and still is welcome. I think you were far from alone in your disappointment watching it wither on the vine.
  - jinushaun 3y ago
    I owned a windows phone. No. It was bad. It had all the misguided UX problems of Windows 8, but in your pocket. Such bad usability. Given more time, I don’t think it would’ve gotten better based on other MS software offerings in 2023
pathartl 3y ago
I think he does get it, though. Windows 11 is the most touch friendly version of the OS to date. While Windows tablets aren't as common as say, the iPad, they're inherently more useful. I will say, they do need to get their heads out of their asses for MAUI.

brnt 3y ago

I am by no means a Windows fan (Linux only sinds 2003) but Windows Phone/mobile was (and is, I have one still) awesome. Snappy, no frills, yet feature complete. Pretty interoperable. Pretty. Pity it's over.

chithanh 3y ago
I remember that quite differently. Windows Phone 7 lacked many basic functions like Bluetooth file transfer, the audio player didn't support gapless playback, alarm clock could not turn on your phone (a staple Nokia feature), Internet Explorer was always behind in supporting web standards (and Microsoft did not allow other browser engines). WP7 didn't even support front cameras until Mango Update. The snappiness of apps was also hindered by network I/O in the UI thread (I mean wtf Microsoft). WP8 did some things better but it was too little, too late. Nokia at some point bitterly complained about Microsoft's inertia in getting important features implemented that Nokia needed in order to sell phones (besides the apps, but that is another whole can of worms). https://www.techspot.com/news/53405-microsofts-slow-development-of-windows-phone-frustrates-nokia.html https://www.techspot.com/news/53405-microsofts-slow-developm...
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  WP 7 is an entirely different story and not what people talk about when they say Windows Phone. It was a reskinned Windows CE because they wanted to release a product and 8 wasn't done yet.
  - chithanh 3y ago
    Microsoft had a Windows CE based smartphone OS at the time, namely Windows Mobile 6.5. Releasing WP7 as a short-lived and compatibility-breaking product with show-stopping deficiencies hurt them in a major way. And it is not that the WP8 release fixed everything that was wrong. Rather, it added to developer churn by switching to yet another API, it upset users because no WP7 phone could be upgraded to WP8 (except for the HTC HD2 which originally came with WM6.1), and it still didn't support any modern mobile web browsers. Then there was this strange limitation to only 720p screens and dual-core CPUs until WP8 GDR3. Or that you could not disable automatic screen rotation until that update. VPN support and the notification center came only with WP8.1.

Clamchop 3y ago

And it never got that ecosystem because of inscrutable mismanagement so scatterbrained and perplexing that I can't wait for the insider-tells-all book about this post-iPhone period at Microsoft that I assume will arrive in a decade or two. Zune, Phone, Surface, Windows 8, Windows RT, Bing, Cortana, Continuum, Project Astoria, I'm sure I'm forgetting. Apple and Google execs must have been amused.

pjmlp 3y ago
If you watch the Windows UI community talks on YouTube, at least on public channels, whoever is in charge doesn't seem to grasp how much all those rewrites killed the ecosystem, and they keep asking people to invest into WinUI/WinAppSDK, which not only is yet another rewrite, the tooling is a joke versus UWP. No wonder that Windows developer community decided to ignore whatever is related to WinUI, and focus on the stable technologies from the past.
- Bootvis 3y ago
  Looking for some advice here. I’d be interested to develop simple GUI’s at work. I don’t have much experience of that. I have a license for VS2015 to maintain legacy VB and C++ but I think an upgrade could be arranged. I’m comfortable doing web dev but the browser remains limiting. In my situation, would learning native gui development be worthwhile or is it much easier to stick to websites and/or Electron?
  - tight-ship 3y ago
    Much easier to go with Electron. The choice is made for you. With native Windows, it's a dozen different solution and you waste timing playing future teller to imagine which one won't be abandoned in the future. At least with Electron you can reuse your skills with websites and it's pretty established now. Yes, it's not as fast but it's fast enough.
  - MattBDev 3y ago
    Using WinUI is really easy to do. Whether you're using WinUI 2.8 with UWP or WinUI 3. So native GUI development isn't difficult at all. XAML is similar to HTML in a lot of ways. If you have your mind set on web development and want a native GUI, you could go with React Native for Windows.

marklubi 3y ago

They tried with the 3rd party apps. I still have the developer phone they gave my company to port our app. It was a fun project, and the live tiles and flat style provided a lot of inspiration that resulted in the next version of our app for iOS and Android.

CSMastermind 3y ago

Lacking 3rd party apps was more of a symptom than a root cause in my opinion. Instead of being scrappy and trying to do whatever it took to gain marketshare in an area they were behind in they put a ton of limitations on their platform and it tanked adoption because the people who were willing to switch and try something new were by definition people who were going to be frustrated with this behavior. Things like not supporting multitasking or apps running in the background, blocking all exes from even being downloaded, not giving access to the underlaying file system, categorically blocking applications like video game emulators, restricting the ability to tether your phone, etc. Yes there wasn't third-party app support and yes their maps sucked but I think both of those would have been fixed over time if they didn't take a super arrogant big brother approach to the operating system. Example of what I'm talking about: http://i.imgur.com/JfFiuO4.png http://i.imgur.com/JfFiuO4.png

chithanh 3y ago
Microsoft both directly and indirectly turned app developers away from Windows Phone. Mobile games at the time were all OpenGL ES, which Microsoft refused to support in favor of Direct3D. Then there was Microsoft's perpetual need to start over. WM6.5 to WP7 broke app compatibility. WP7 to WP8, entirely new APIs. WP8 to WM10 there was UWP and Continuum, again forcing major rewrites if you wanted the new features. And finally how Microsoft treated the devs themselves. Ad-supported apps depended on Microsoft's ad network which was artificially kept alive by Microsoft injecting money for Xbox and Office ads. Once Microsoft stopped, the whole thing folded, leaving developers with a sudden loss of income. Developers from countries in Microsoft's 2nd tier additionally reported poor treatment and Kafka'esque bureaucracy preventing them from publishing apps: https://toshl.com/blog/why-publishing-on-the-windows-phone-marketplace-is-like-walking-barefoot-on-broken-glass/ https://toshl.com/blog/why-publishing-on-the-windows-phone-m... This is why I think the app situation would not have fixed itself over time, and MS efforts to ease transition like Project Islandwood were doomed from the start, because those fixed a problem but not the problem.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  There was no lack of games, Valve even needs to emulate DirectX and Win32, as Android developers couldn't care less about Steam Deck. The rewrites across multiple versions, that is what killed the desire to target the devices.

wvenable 3y ago

Just a couple of years ago, while cleaning up the office we found an old Windows Phone in a drawer and powered it up. I could see why some people liked it, it was actually very snappy/smooth compared with Android/iOS from the same era.

jkestner 3y ago

Loved my Lumia 800 and 925. I actually considered the limited ecosystem a feature because I didn't want to be more addicted to the phone. And the concept of glanceable icons and all the stuff intended to keep you from getting lost in apps—great to me, but unfortunately not great for the app business model. So it died.

skeeter2020 3y ago

the hardware was amazing - you'd get top of the line processor / screen and memory for a few hundred bucks. The OS was great too; so much nicer than the "pages of apps" on other phones, mostly because there never were pages of apps available on a windows phone :(

jacobgorm 3y ago

The Lumia 940 with Windows Phone is the only Microsoft product I have enjoyed using and that miss using even today. The iPhone launcher is still years behind it today.