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When you stop your train of thought at "polticians are evil" you havent found the root but only a symptom. What corrupts people in any position and how would w

When you stop your train of thought at "polticians are evil" you havent found the root but only a symptom. What corrupts people in any position and how would we keep our institutions as clean as possible? (Hint: It might have something to do with democracy and "working on your behalf".) Edit: Where does the notion, that an EU body is behind the campagne come from?

api 3y ago
> What corrupts people in any position Incentives rule the world. The question to ask is what the incentive structure of a politician's world looks like.
Y_Y 3y ago
I blame the electorate.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  Sure, blame the victim.
  - throwaway092323 3y ago
    It's possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator, for example, if you give power to someone who uses that power to hurt you and others.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
There need be no corruption, for bad outcomes to occur. True that it never helps, and perhaps even true that when there is corruption, there tend to be slightly more bad outcomes. But the bad outcomes are just decisions, most of which are neither illegal nor plainly unethical, made so quickly and relentlessly that real people get chewed up by them.
grpt 3y ago
> Edit: Where does the notion, that an EU body is behind the campagne come from? It's literally what the linked article is about.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
idonotknowwhy 3y ago
Corruption also exists outside of democracies.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  All currently existing electoral democracies are corrupt by design, you cannot elect people and expect them to not be lobbied. Only lottery based sortition with short terms and decades long cooldown periods solves that issue. It hasn't been tried since ancient Athens though, afaik.
  - psvv 3y ago
    Sounds similar to jury duty at least.
    - moffkalast 3y ago
      Yeah that's more or less the concept, except it not being mandatory to participate.
  - Gud 3y ago
    Direct democracy also solves this issue.
creer 3y ago
Seems to me the problem is very much the LACK of "working on your behalf". I don't feel that many people go into public service "unselfishly". People go into public service by ambition (and then quickly enough there is no point in anything except to build the network); or to further their own adolescent ideals (and then fuck everything else in the service of that obsession); or for the benefits; or because it's the ideal stable job; etc. Who in there does it "to do the right thing for the overall good of the overall population"? Who actually does it "to defend the constitution" (I mean not just when it's convenient?).
- throwawayqqq11 3y ago
  >Who in there does it "to do the right thing for the overall good of the overall population"? You are implying that these reasonable and good willing people dont exist. All i have to do here is show you one exception (which there are plenty of) and also point to the filtering characteristics of a democracy. I dont like the conclusion that "evil politicians just exist". To me, its the same populism ala "migrants are just criminals". Followed by "thought process finished successfully." The problem we are taking about here is the accumulated failure of voters, that enables the sociopathes their careers. The lack of understanding of the problem also shows in opposite scenarions, be it either anarchy or authoritarian. The same demagogues would eventually rise to the top harden their position and so eventually working against your interests too. IMO this is a lesson that libertarians need to learn too. A free market will eventually be corrupted too and the only way to prevent or overcome it is a side channel, like a democracy. A democracy is the only form of goverment that enables peacefully revolutions by design.
  - creer 3y ago
    > You are implying that these reasonable and good willing people dont exist. More subtly I am not arguing that many people get into public service twirling their mustache and going "MuuuuAHAHAHA!". I am arguing that many people go in with their adolescent ideals and are convinced that they are doing good by doing the evil that they do. That is "banal corruption". They are not corrupt because going after money. They are not corrupt because going after fame and power. They are corrupt by letting their own ideals / philosophy / religion get in front of more provable, cold realities of what the polis actually needs done now. Let's take a very banal example: Traffic engineers in one of the cities I live in (there might be only one traffic engineer). Their duty is to make traffic work ever better - that's required for the city to work well for its inhabitants. Other people have other missions. For that office, that's cars and bikes mostly - I don't know if public transit is this particular office's duty - and to keep pedestrians safe from that traffic and vice et versa. However in practice they work much more specifically to make it ever harder to drive cars. Based on the evidence of living in that city, they are actively working against car traffic. They are now NOT working to "honorably discharge" their duty. They are instead working on "what THEY think is good". That is NOT the same thing. It has a name. That name is "corruption". Fine, another example at a different scale: You might remember the quote [The piece of paper is not a suicide pact] - as justification for one high office politician to ignore his sworn duty and do whatever he wanted. To which much of the country then cheered. Now that one is Corruption with a capital C. Does the EU commissioner think they are doing the right thing? Probably yes. Would they acknowledge privately that they are stretching the limits to breaking point? Quite likely - they didn't get there by being stupid. Would they (privately) argue that it was worth doing "for the cause"? Yep. Corruption. > the accumulated failure of voters, that enables the sociopathes their careers Well, sure. I believe that in democracies, the buck does not stop with the president but with the voters. But I think this is at a deep level. That is, our current institutions are very vulnerable to this kind of takeover. And many voters cheer on that corruption (because it furthers THEIR ideals, and fuck the constitution.) Which is why I feel that "How we run institutions" is one of the current Big Challenges on humanity. How we do that currently really doesn't cut it. We have to find ways to do better. > [libertarians vs democracy] Facts not in evidence! Democracy as we run it currently is a fantastic breeding ground for this kind of corruption. Authoritarian regimes are a different thing: They are completely dependent on whether the leading person or group is enlightened. It's a "luck of the draw" kind of thing. But yeah, they are "by design" there to pursue the obsessions of the leaders - whether good or bad.

api 3y ago

> What corrupts people in any position Incentives rule the world. The question to ask is what the incentive structure of a politician's world looks like.

Y_Y 3y ago

I blame the electorate.

mandmandam 3y ago
Sure, blame the victim.
- throwaway092323 3y ago
  It's possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator, for example, if you give power to someone who uses that power to hurt you and others.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

There need be no corruption, for bad outcomes to occur. True that it never helps, and perhaps even true that when there is corruption, there tend to be slightly more bad outcomes. But the bad outcomes are just decisions, most of which are neither illegal nor plainly unethical, made so quickly and relentlessly that real people get chewed up by them.

grpt 3y ago

> Edit: Where does the notion, that an EU body is behind the campagne come from? It's literally what the linked article is about.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

idonotknowwhy 3y ago

Corruption also exists outside of democracies.

moffkalast 3y ago
All currently existing electoral democracies are corrupt by design, you cannot elect people and expect them to not be lobbied. Only lottery based sortition with short terms and decades long cooldown periods solves that issue. It hasn't been tried since ancient Athens though, afaik.
- psvv 3y ago
  Sounds similar to jury duty at least.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Yeah that's more or less the concept, except it not being mandatory to participate.
- Gud 3y ago
  Direct democracy also solves this issue.

creer 3y ago

Seems to me the problem is very much the LACK of "working on your behalf". I don't feel that many people go into public service "unselfishly". People go into public service by ambition (and then quickly enough there is no point in anything except to build the network); or to further their own adolescent ideals (and then fuck everything else in the service of that obsession); or for the benefits; or because it's the ideal stable job; etc. Who in there does it "to do the right thing for the overall good of the overall population"? Who actually does it "to defend the constitution" (I mean not just when it's convenient?).

throwawayqqq11 3y ago
>Who in there does it "to do the right thing for the overall good of the overall population"? You are implying that these reasonable and good willing people dont exist. All i have to do here is show you one exception (which there are plenty of) and also point to the filtering characteristics of a democracy. I dont like the conclusion that "evil politicians just exist". To me, its the same populism ala "migrants are just criminals". Followed by "thought process finished successfully." The problem we are taking about here is the accumulated failure of voters, that enables the sociopathes their careers. The lack of understanding of the problem also shows in opposite scenarions, be it either anarchy or authoritarian. The same demagogues would eventually rise to the top harden their position and so eventually working against your interests too. IMO this is a lesson that libertarians need to learn too. A free market will eventually be corrupted too and the only way to prevent or overcome it is a side channel, like a democracy. A democracy is the only form of goverment that enables peacefully revolutions by design.
- creer 3y ago
  > You are implying that these reasonable and good willing people dont exist. More subtly I am not arguing that many people get into public service twirling their mustache and going "MuuuuAHAHAHA!". I am arguing that many people go in with their adolescent ideals and are convinced that they are doing good by doing the evil that they do. That is "banal corruption". They are not corrupt because going after money. They are not corrupt because going after fame and power. They are corrupt by letting their own ideals / philosophy / religion get in front of more provable, cold realities of what the polis actually needs done now. Let's take a very banal example: Traffic engineers in one of the cities I live in (there might be only one traffic engineer). Their duty is to make traffic work ever better - that's required for the city to work well for its inhabitants. Other people have other missions. For that office, that's cars and bikes mostly - I don't know if public transit is this particular office's duty - and to keep pedestrians safe from that traffic and vice et versa. However in practice they work much more specifically to make it ever harder to drive cars. Based on the evidence of living in that city, they are actively working against car traffic. They are now NOT working to "honorably discharge" their duty. They are instead working on "what THEY think is good". That is NOT the same thing. It has a name. That name is "corruption". Fine, another example at a different scale: You might remember the quote [The piece of paper is not a suicide pact] - as justification for one high office politician to ignore his sworn duty and do whatever he wanted. To which much of the country then cheered. Now that one is Corruption with a capital C. Does the EU commissioner think they are doing the right thing? Probably yes. Would they acknowledge privately that they are stretching the limits to breaking point? Quite likely - they didn't get there by being stupid. Would they (privately) argue that it was worth doing "for the cause"? Yep. Corruption. > the accumulated failure of voters, that enables the sociopathes their careers Well, sure. I believe that in democracies, the buck does not stop with the president but with the voters. But I think this is at a deep level. That is, our current institutions are very vulnerable to this kind of takeover. And many voters cheer on that corruption (because it furthers THEIR ideals, and fuck the constitution.) Which is why I feel that "How we run institutions" is one of the current Big Challenges on humanity. How we do that currently really doesn't cut it. We have to find ways to do better. > [libertarians vs democracy] Facts not in evidence! Democracy as we run it currently is a fantastic breeding ground for this kind of corruption. Authoritarian regimes are a different thing: They are completely dependent on whether the leading person or group is enlightened. It's a "luck of the draw" kind of thing. But yeah, they are "by design" there to pursue the obsessions of the leaders - whether good or bad.