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Less inflammatory but more technically correct - Woman's Pockets Reveal That Women Do Not Value Putting Things In Their Pockets. It stretches credulity, given

• arghwhat 3y ago
  This is not accurate. Choice only reflects preference when sufficient choices are available (in this case, having common options with large pockets), and that making a selection based on preference in that area does not require significant downgrades on other areas (having a cargo pants option is not sufficient if the user is looking for skinny jeans with larger pockets).
  • Jensson 3y ago
    You are assuming that you know better than the experts who design and decide what clothes to sell. Those experts are sometimes wrong, yes, but not that often, you need really good arguments to convince us that you know better than them.
    • arghwhat 3y ago
      If everyone needs jeans, and everyone makes jeans with small pockets, everyone will buy jeans with small pockets and make the analytics show that the market is satisfied and profit targets are met. These "experts" only maximize for their own preferred design and target profits. The fact that womens pockets are ridiculously small has become a meme is a good indication that they are wrong and do not care. Ask any seamstress and they will agree.
      • Jensson 3y ago
        > The fact that womens pockets are ridiculously small has become a meme is a good indication that they are wrong and do not care. This isn't true, it can be a meme anyway if women prefer the looks of small pockets they wont even consider the larger pocketed one, and we end up in the current situation. It isn't hard to find clothes with larger pockets, it is hard to find clothes women like with larger pockets.
        • hef19898 3y ago
          [flagged]
          • Jensson 3y ago
            Obviously, otherwise you wouldn't look at a thread about women's fashion on a start up tech forum. Everyone here clicked it since they want to see what start up tech people think about women's fashion.
        • arghwhat 3y ago
          Yeah, but I as a man do not need to wear cargo pants to fit a phone in my pocket. If you can get skinny jeans with room for a phone for men, you should be able to get skinny jeans with room for a phone for women.
      • lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Surely, if seamstresses agree, then selling women’s clothes with bigger/more pockets is not a novel idea. And making clothes with bigger/more pockets does not require a high barrier to entry, the technology has been there for decades. And profit margins on clothes are tiny, so it stands to reason that sellers would be looking for any edge they can get to sell more clothes and/or at a higher price. If you agree with the above, then there are two options: 1) for decades, people whose livelihood is selling clothes have missed an obvious opportunity to earn more money 2) people whose livelihood is selling clothes have not been able to succeed in selling women’s clothes with bigger/more pockets If option 1, then someone needs to jump into this business. I sympathize with my wife and daughter who also complain about the lack and size of pockets, but I am not sure how to square that with the above parameters. Maybe it is an under-explored business opportunity, but it is so low barrier to entry that it seems unbelievable that the answer is not sufficient lack of demand (option 2).
        • arghwhat 3y ago
          Asked a close friend of mine who is a female seamstress. Their opinion on the matter: 1. The popular brands are run by men who do not understand and/or agree with the issue. 2. The large manufacturers as they have favorable supply deals, and threaten suppliers to not sell to competitors at the risk of losing their business, resulting in lack of affordable materials to build competing businesses. The former being the reason for the current bias in options, and the latter explaining why there is no fair market for alternative options.
          • lotsofpulp 3y ago
            I find that hard to believe. Chairman at Zara is a woman, CEO of gap was a woman for at least 2020 to 2022, CEO of H&M is a woman. > 1. The popular brands are run by men who do not understand and/or agree with the issue. What is there to understand? Bigger pockets fit more things. It is physics. It is possible, but I doubt a man leading a clothing company is deciding against making more money by selling clothes with bigger pockets due to a philosophy of believing women’s clothes should not have pockets. Given the option of earning more money or preventing women from having more or bigger pockets, surely every single leader in the clothing business is not going to forego more money.
    • empyrrhicist 3y ago
      Lol, you're trying to mansplain pockets. Literally every time this has come up in conversation I've heard women complain that there aren't any options.
      • Jensson 3y ago
        You don't understand, they want to both eat their cake and keep it. They want large pockets, but they also refuse to wear clothes they find ugly, and they find large pockets ugly, hence they wont find any clothes with large pockets since they filter them out before even considering it. But of course if you ask them if they magically want larger pockets they say yes. I'd also want magical pants.
      • lesuorac 3y ago
        > Literally every time this has come up in conversation I've heard women complain that there aren't any options. I've looked nowhere and I can't find it! Literally every few years some company comes out claiming they'll make woman's pants with pockets.
        • empyrrhicist 3y ago
          [Citation needed] I bought a phone without a 3.5mm jack once because I didn't think to check. I may have to buy one again when my Pixel dies due to lack of options. Clearly I don't care about 3.5mm jacks /s
          • lesuorac 3y ago
            > [Citation needed] Sure, try to buy anything from Pairess (2019) [1]. It turns out functional woman's clothes isn't a good enough business to last 4 years. [1]: https://www.affirm.com/business/blog/affirm-pairess-disrupt-fashion https://www.affirm.com/business/blog/affirm-pairess-disrupt-...
          • lotsofpulp 3y ago
            Advanced electronics have a very high barrier to entry, and are unsuitable as an analogy to the clothing business.
    • nordsieck 3y ago
      Also, small creators enter the market all the time. If some indie brand was seeing huge demand selling women's clothes with large pockets, the mainstream brands would hop on the bandwagon in a heartbeat.
      • nerdponx 3y ago
        Where do I find small creators making pants? Serious question. Neither my wife nor I can find pants we like.
        • lotsofpulp 3y ago
          I know you can go to India and pick out fabrics and have them make custom clothing, but you might be able to find someone online these days. For example, I searched “custom clothing india” and came up with these: https://www.eshakti.com/default.aspx https://www.eshakti.com/default.aspx https://www.cloudtailor.com/ https://www.cloudtailor.com/
      • empyrrhicist 3y ago
        People like to try on pants, and people who just want normal pants with functional pockets are the LAST people you'd expect to be looking through niche clothing boutiques lol. Not to mention custom clothes are super expensive.
        • Elvie 3y ago
          Exactly, I want a pair of functional jeans, not too skinny, not stupid flared with handy pockets for phone, keys, wallet I do not want to go rummaging on niche shops or to buy online and have the faff of returning things that don't fit
          • empyrrhicist 3y ago
            Clearly you don't actually exist, or you're lying to yourself about your preferences /s
  • lo_zamoyski 3y ago
    Do you think women would want larger pockets? Fashion is always on the move, vacillating through a range of possibilities in a way that rhymes with previous periods. And yet, certain invariants seem to hold or dominate over time and space. I bet that if large pockets were introduced, women would express either indifference or select against them. (Anecdotally, I asked a woman whether she'd want larger pockets, and she responded that she doesn't like pockets at all, and doesn't like having anything in them when they are there.) The belief women's pockets are inferior because they're smaller sounds to me like a boneheaded presumption that completely ignores the difference in needs, body shape, and preferences between the sexes, a kind of boorish and blinded egalitarianism. You wouldn't say that the wool dress pants a lawyer might wear are inferior to jeans because construction workers can't use them during work. That's just pure fallacy. The purposes that each is made for is different. The purpose is the measure, and there are different purposes.
  • snehk 3y ago
    > if the user is looking for skinny jeans with larger pocket Have you worn skinny jeans for males? The pockets are horrendous as well.
    • arghwhat 3y ago
      Hah, you think that's bad? The ones for women are half the size! > On average, women’s skinny jean pockets were 3.5 inches (48%) shorter and 0.3 inches (6%) narrower than men’s skinny jeans.
• master-lincoln 3y ago
  Still that minority is not being served. Reminds me of small powerful smart phones being almost extinct. I have heard the complaint so often now, but it seems the majority wouldn't want smaller phones. Contrary to small phones though, big pocket pants seem like something you could produce without much investment. But then you could not compete with the pricing of big cheap brands and I assume that makes the market situation as is: it's too niche for mass taste and the niche is not willing to invest more money. I am wondering how many women just buy pants made for men to get bigger pockets?
  • blueflow 3y ago
    > Still that minority is not being served Cargo pants. Also its not a problem to buy and wear mens clothes.
    • hef19898 3y ago
      Which doesn't fit. And not everyone priorotizes functionality over looks. And that women have an issue whem it comes to trouser pockets here is rather well known, and not a voluntary choice according to most women I know.
      • blueflow 3y ago
        > And not everyone priorotizes functionality over looks. Then why complain about women's clothes being dysfunctional?
    • arghwhat 3y ago
      "I would like a micro car, but would like the glovebox to be slightly bigger" "Not a problem, just buy a pick-up truck instead" Cargo pants are not the same as jeans with larger pockets, nor is changing to mens clothing the same as getting larger pockets in the womens option, which tend to have different shapes and available sizes.
    • benterix 3y ago
      I don't know about your country, but in mine cargo pants are ridiculed by women, even more than short sleeve shirts (supposedly you need to roll up the sleeves of long-sleeved shirts). There is no way they would wear cargo pants. A small minority in certain scenarios - maybe. Women in general - no way.
• ipython 3y ago
  I was not aware of a democratic vote by women on the state of their pockets? IMHO you have it backwards. The women that control clothing decisions are a small minority of all women. I bet if you polled women you’d find a majority that would favor larger pockets.
  • roenxi 3y ago
    There is a reason we don't expect commercial decisions to be made by poll - consumers are outrageous liars. You can poll consumers and they'll say all sorts of things that turn out to clearly not be true based on their in store choices. If we conducted a poll of 50 women, we might well find most of them say they want pants with bigger pockets. If you start a big-pocket line of womans clothing, you'll probably sell a lot less than someone who tries alternate tactics. Or make a fortune, what do I know. But if anyone believes there is a fortune to be made they can go try that remarkably easily and yet small pockets persist.
    • almatabata 3y ago
      > consumers are outrageous liars Calling them liars is a bit much in this scenario. I would blame the poll more than the person answering the poll. If I ask you: do you want a Porsche? You might say yes, but if i say: i can give you a Porsche for a million. You will probably say no. They should probably ask a more nuanced question around what kind of trade-offs people would be willing to make for those bigger pockets.
  • jasode 3y ago
    >The women that control clothing decisions are a small minority of all women. The apparel/garment industry is highly fragmented with a low barrier-of-entry. It's not as "top-down" as your sentence seems to be implying. There are plenty of how-tos on the web explaining how to turn your clothing designs into products using contract manufacturers in China etc. That's why amateur Youtube influencers with no experience in the garment industry can "launch" their own clothing lines. It seems that if "women's pants with bigger pockets" was desired by enough potential buyers to be profitable, some entrepreneurs would already have taken advantage of that arbitrage opportunity and become rich. I agree with the sibling comment[1] that women may prefer bigger pockets if that one characteristic was isolated -- but they also prioritize other aspects such as the "look" the pants that end up forcing smaller pockets. Women's clothing is often a prime example of form-over-function (as a deliberate tradeoff) rather than function-over-form. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37997682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37997682
• anotheraccount9 3y ago
  If women wanted larger pockets, they would be using them. But they prefer not - based on market, preference and selection.
  • hef19898 3y ago
    It is quite hard to use something that basicaly doesn't exist. You should try it once!
    • snehk 3y ago
      Have you looked? Because every single one of my girlfriend's jeans has regular pockets. You should be able to find them easily in stores like H&M.
      • hef19898 3y ago
        I usually don't look at my wife's trouser pocket when ironing them. Even if I did, I am not wearing them, so impossible for me to tell if they are sufficiently sized for her. And cross dressing is a no-go, I simply don't fit even fit up to my knees in those jeans of hers.
• nordsieck 3y ago
  > Woman's Pockets Reveal That Women Do Not Value Putting Things In Their Pockets. I think it's slightly more nuanced than that. The way I think about values is that everyone values everything all the time. The interesting part is when values come into conflict. So it's probably true that women do value putting things in their pockets. But they (evidently) value incompatible things more.
• nerdponx 3y ago
  Individual women have very little control over the clothing that they can buy. As an exercise, go to any mall or shopping center and try to find a pair of women's jeans that meet the following criteria: 1. Decent quality material, is not deliberately pre-destroyed 2. Functional pockets, but not outlandish 90s style cargo pockets 3. Cut with a straight lower leg, not flared or tapered "skinny", and a proportional leg overall, not extra-wide or skinny 4. A waist size that doesn't assume the wearer is an athlete with a flat stomach (remember, women's pants are sized by number, not by waist x length), even in a "curvy" fit 5. Is not purpose-designed hiking gear If you can find anything meeting all 5 criteria, I will pay you a $50 finder's fee and consider booking a trip to visit your fair city, because my wife would be thrilled to know they exist. Revealed preference only ever makes sense when interpreted as preference among available options, not preference among all possible options. > Evidence suggests that any demand is a vocal minority The demand for any one individual improvement is probably a relatively vocal minority. There are so many busted messed up attributes about women's clothing that it's hard to choose any one of them to be vocal about. So the overall effect is diluted. That, and, a lot of women are probably just used to carrying their stuff in a handbag and don't even realize that decent pockets could be an option. Likewise for the unnecessary forced selection between super skinny and super wide jeans.
  • lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > If you can find anything meeting all 5 criteria, I will pay you a $50 finder's fee and consider booking a trip to visit your fair city, because my wife would be thrilled to know they exist. Is it possible that your criteria is not possible? If it is possible, buy a vacation to Bangladesh or India, and go to one of the many fabric stores. They have people who can design and make literally make whatever clothes you want. It won’t be $50, but it would be affordable for many in the US. The question is, is it worth sufficiently more than the $30 clothes that clothes sellers are betting will appeal to a much more broad audience? >Revealed preference only ever makes sense when interpreted as preference among available options, not preference among all possible options. In the case of clothing, especially women’s clothing, surely the available options comes close to all possible options, especially after all these decades. Carrying smartphones has been ubiquitous for 10+ years, surely someone in the supply chain has personally (or their spouse) experienced the need for bigger pockets.
• shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  Femininity as a concept is rooted in patriarchal oppression, but because people are brainwashed and pressured into it, they actively want it, so it's not a problem. Women against burkas or female circumcision are also vocal minorities in parts of the world too.