6 ms·

'Failure to act' on suicide website linked to 50 UK deaths

40 points by gadders 3y ago

caslon 3y ago
This is a terrible, substanceless article. Nowhere within does it offer anything more than vague abstracts, all the while keeping this bizarre idea that a "forum" that provides information is directly responsible for doing something that people should be allowed to do. It ends by twisting deaths caused by a society that from the perspective of the "victims" isn't worth living in to propaganda for fascism. What they call poison is most likely referring to curing salt one can buy off of Amazon. As someone who contemplates it regularly, it's insulting to rob the attempts of autonomy. A person who is able to commit suicide is exercising autonomy. They are not mindless, and they are not insane. Everything about this, from the framing of its subjects, to the dubiously-real "letter," to the British press harassing a foreign citizen, is rather disgusting. It's a thin, opportunistic attempt to validate a terrible law and claim it doesn't go far enough. I don't know a thing about the site, but from the way it's described, they aren't going out of their way to hurt anyone, or being actively malicious. Is this really where we want to head? Suicide deaths have barely moved at all per capita since 1970. If it's really about the facts, like the article says, then it might help more than it hurts.
- onethought 3y ago
  I empathise with your position. But there is very clearly a spectrum of conditions and levels of autonomy at play when it comes to suicide. I.e there may be mindless/insane people within the cohort of people who attempt suicide, just as their may be people with full reasoned autonomy.
  - caslon 3y ago
    There are mindless and insane people who live perfectly normal and healthy lives. Putting safety rails on everything in society isn't something we do for them; their actions are still their own, and we generally accept that as a society, barring extremes such as dementia.
    - onethought 3y ago
      I’m sorry, I really believe we should intervene in suicide attempts. We have success stories of treating even the most debilitating and chronic forms of depression. We have zero success stories of bringing people back to life. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (in most cases/euthanasia aside)
- superchroma 3y ago
  My friend changed her mind at the final moment. It was too late. She oscillated on the topic, going from normality to suicidal ideation. What you might call autonomy, I call her darkest moments. When that mood wasn't upon her, she laughed, she loved, she had aspirations, passions dreams and plans. All dashed forever.
  - caslon 3y ago
    Yes, depression isn't constant for everyone. That doesn't mean a person isn't responsible for their own decisions, and it doesn't mean the state should step in to force them out of their decisions. Especially without offering some form of relief for something other than symptoms. A person can "live, laugh, love," as much as you'd like them to. They can have all the aspirations and plans in the world and still ultimately not want to be alive. Just because one is afraid to die does not mean they'd want to be alive if they could flip a switch for it. When I go, it will not be because of a momentary lapse in judgment as you imply. It will be something I've contemplated at good length for years on. Outside of pseudonymity, I will tell my acquaintances and friends that I am doing well. I will be doing well. It doesn't change how I ultimately feel about the subject. A "normal" does not invalidate what will happen in moments where someone finally works up the nerve to go through with something, because it isn't insanity that causes suicidal ideation. It's something calculated. Sharing information on how to do it with the least amount of misery helps, it doesn't hurt.
    - superchroma 3y ago
      What you are saying is "don't tell me how I feel", and I'm not. What I am saying is that I don't care how you feel because the internal experience isn't a universal one. Do it, or don't, I don't actually care, but don't come around participating in discussions about rules and policy for a world you're prepared to leave behind. There are actually vulnerable people throwing good things away, who might actually be helped, and those who the approach you prescribe (the status quo) lets down.
      - caslon 3y ago
lozenge 3y ago
This site was covered in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3y6SsGAWks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3y6SsGAWks And in NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/09/us/where-the-despairing-log-on.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/09/us/where-the-...
- quietpain 3y ago
  Entered the forum title in google, google refuses to show content and shows a single link to "findahelpline.com" I'm in Belgium, btw - suicide capital of Europe.
  - tropsis 3y ago
    Luckily duckduckgo still returns the forum as top result.
    - ericfrazier 3y ago
      I believe it's https://sanctioned-suicide.net/ https://sanctioned-suicide.net/
- DueDilligence 3y ago
  [dead]
verisimi 3y ago
Wow - the images on that BBC article are so bad. They are processing them, adding a background, effects, lots of 'blue'.... Why? It gives the impression of a light magazine article, not news.
- the-dude 3y ago
  I can hardly imagine the people who are depicted would have consented were they still alive ... tasteless indeed.
- HtmlProgrammer 3y ago
  Those are the spooky internet hacker colours
- renewiltord 3y ago
  It’s to distinguish photos of the deceased from photos of other people of interest to the story. Seems fine to me.
baobabKoodaa 3y ago
Are people not allowed to discuss their suicidal thoughts? Or, they are allowed, but only certain pre-approved opinions? Particularly, anti-suicide opinions are allowed while pro-suicide opinions are "illegal"? People should have the right to choose what they want to do with their own body, including the choice to kill themselves. Suicidal thoughts will not disappear by simply outlawing the public expression of them. You are merely pushing people more into the fringes, when you should be attempting to pull them out.
- zirgs 3y ago
  > People should have the right to choose what they want to do with their own body, including the choice to kill themselves. Many suicide attempt survivors don't try it again.
  - tremon 3y ago
    Nor do the successful ones
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    Because it's hard and society makes it as hard as possible to do it in a dignified way without lots of suffering. It's not as easy as you think, even when you are suffering. Being an empty walking corpse but technically living isn't any better than going through with it.
    - zirgs 3y ago
      Those who really want to die - will find a way. But there should be obstacles to discourage those who have temporary problems. I mean - we can agree that if your crush rejects you when you're 16 years old - that isn't a good reason to take your own life. But if you're terminally ill and don't have much time left anyway then suicide is totally OK.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
TheAceOfHearts 3y ago
I don't think this is a topic which can be discussed effectively. Most platforms ban any discussion of the topic, even those who claim to support free speech will shut it down. But little is actually done to help people besides telling them to go to therapy or call some phone number. Do people really think that if they restrict access to methods of suicide people will magically get better? If that's all that a society is doing then they're simply delaying the inevitable or condemning the person to continue suffering. Worse yet, you drown someone in psychiatric drugs that kill the soul, leaving behind a walking corpse. And we pretend like it's some sort of mercy because there's an undead zombie. Even if it's but a shell of the former person. The most likely outcome is that nothing major will change, and people will continue to lament the suicides. Maybe people wouldn't commit suicide if they had actual help. But most of these people have probably been abandoned and isolated from society. Within the harsh garden of reality not all plants are able to flourish.
- onethought 3y ago
  It was shown in 1974 (Phillips) that suicide rate increased after reporting on it in the media. There is a correlation between it being present and accessible as an idea and increase in attempts.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    People that will opt for suicide because they become aware from it through the media, are already depressed and feel defeated in life. Following with an action or not is then a technical matter. If the media didn't report on suicide, and they didn't pick it up and go for it, they'd still be living in hell mentally. So, real help would be more about helping them not feel like that (and even more so, to not live in circumstances that cause them to feel like that), than sweeping reports of suicide under the carpet.
    - onethought 3y ago
      I’m sorry, suicide has been shown to be much more acute activity than you are implying. Statistically if you stop someone, or thwart an attempt they do not try again the majority of the time. Any action we do to reduce suicides really does save lives.
Nextgrid 3y ago
A suicide-themed forum shouldn't be a problem in a healthy society. If the presence of a suicide forum is what drives people to suicide then there's something very wrong and it's not the forum that is the problem. However, addressing the underlying issues that drive people to suicide is not only difficult but would also be bad for business and entrenched interests, so it's easier to blame the symptom instead.
charcircuit 3y ago
>Failure to act More like the BBC should mind its business as running a forum like this in the US is legal to do.
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  It’s a news outlet. Minding other peoples business is it’s business.
tropsis 3y ago
People who have lost someone to suicide often seek someone to blame, yet they seldom consider that the person may have had their reasons, most possibly unrelated to that forum. The forum serves as a vital outlet for individuals enduring difficult times, potentially saving more lives than it has taken. Nonetheless, some non-suicidal individuals aim to erase it merely due to personal dislike. It's bewildering.
- Nursie 3y ago
  The story talks about a few things which make it likely that the forum is contributory - a user is described as using information from the forum to frustrate a mental health evaluation, and in taking advice on an effective method of ending their lives. It's not personal dislike so much as it seems like facilitation. Advice on how to fake it through a mental health assessment, which may otherwise have lead to help being given, seems particularly harmful.
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    It's because there is no real "help" being given there. Mental health services in many places are just "if you are really suicidal, we lock you up, otherwise we do nothing"... faking an assessment so you don't get institutionalised and get brain damage from all the pyschiatric drugs and end up a zombie is a pretty good idea IMO What kind of help do you think they would give if they evaluate your mental health is poor?
    - Nursie 3y ago
      If you hide your intent to kill yourself then nobody can help. And if you guide others in how to hide it, you’re increasing the likelihood they will die by their own hands. It’s not a good thing to do.
  - tropsis 3y ago
    I don't see any problem with that. Information that increases personal autonomy should be available to anyone, everywhere, and for any reason. When you talk about "help being given," I suppose you are referring to drugs that don't work for most and therapy that cannot address the underlying problems.
Borrible 3y ago
"The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night." Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil "Not to be born at all Is best, far best that can befall, Next best, when born, with least delay To trace the backward way. For when youth passes with its giddy train, Troubles on troubles follow, toils on toils, Pain, pain forever pain; And none escapes life's coils. Envy, sedition, strife, Carnage and war, make up the tale of life." Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus Nonetheless, I sense a certain bias in the living for their existence. Probably an evolutionary advantage over the dead.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
computerfriend 3y ago
I think this is just propaganda for the upcoming Online Safety Bill.
- blackshaw 3y ago
  Yeah, it's quite hilarious that this article's only critique of the OSB is to quote someone saying that it doesn't go far enough.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Heyso 3y ago
Thinking about banning the forum instead of trying understand the stories, the pain, how we could help is stupid. I feel like again "peoples" wabt to remove the red flare instead of going for the root cause. Because it is much easier. This is very present for mental health. Ignore the cause, just fet some surgery and a lot of medicine until it get worse and you die. Change you way of living, explore past traumas, question your strongest beliefs ? Hell no. Better ban a forum and call it fixed.
blackshaw 3y ago
Here we go again: Alex Jones is being a dick? Disgraceful - we need to censor the internet. Cloudflare is protecting a Neo-Nazi website from being DDOSed? There's no such thing as neutrality - we need to censor the internet. Journalists are getting "harassed"? This must be stopped - we need to censor the internet. Someone I don't like got elected? The problem is "disinformation" - we need to censor the internet. Some guy in Scotland made an idiotic and tasteless joke involving his dog? We can't allow this kind of content - we need to censor the internet. Joe Rogan is platforming the wrong people? They mustn't be allowed to spread their bad ideas - we need to censor the internet. Something, something, Russia? Censor the internet! Censor the internet!!! But wait: now suicidal people are getting suicide information from a web forum? You'd have never have guessed, but the answer is... to censor the internet! Idk, I think that maybe the issue isn't the issue, these people just want more power to censor the internet.

40 points by gadders 3y ago

This is a terrible, substanceless article. Nowhere within does it offer anything more than vague abstracts, all the while keeping this bizarre idea that a "forum" that provides information is directly responsible for doing something that people should be allowed to do. It ends by twisting deaths caused by a society that from the perspective of the "victims" isn't worth living in to propaganda for fascism. What they call poison is most likely referring to curing salt one can buy off of Amazon. As someone who contemplates it regularly, it's insulting to rob the attempts of autonomy. A person who is able to commit suicide is exercising autonomy. They are not mindless, and they are not insane. Everything about this, from the framing of its subjects, to the dubiously-real "letter," to the British press harassing a foreign citizen, is rather disgusting. It's a thin, opportunistic attempt to validate a terrible law and claim it doesn't go far enough. I don't know a thing about the site, but from the way it's described, they aren't going out of their way to hurt anyone, or being actively malicious. Is this really where we want to head? Suicide deaths have barely moved at all per capita since 1970. If it's really about the facts, like the article says, then it might help more than it hurts.

onethought 3y ago
I empathise with your position. But there is very clearly a spectrum of conditions and levels of autonomy at play when it comes to suicide. I.e there may be mindless/insane people within the cohort of people who attempt suicide, just as their may be people with full reasoned autonomy.
- caslon 3y ago
  There are mindless and insane people who live perfectly normal and healthy lives. Putting safety rails on everything in society isn't something we do for them; their actions are still their own, and we generally accept that as a society, barring extremes such as dementia.
  - onethought 3y ago
    I’m sorry, I really believe we should intervene in suicide attempts. We have success stories of treating even the most debilitating and chronic forms of depression. We have zero success stories of bringing people back to life. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (in most cases/euthanasia aside)
superchroma 3y ago
My friend changed her mind at the final moment. It was too late. She oscillated on the topic, going from normality to suicidal ideation. What you might call autonomy, I call her darkest moments. When that mood wasn't upon her, she laughed, she loved, she had aspirations, passions dreams and plans. All dashed forever.
- caslon 3y ago
  Yes, depression isn't constant for everyone. That doesn't mean a person isn't responsible for their own decisions, and it doesn't mean the state should step in to force them out of their decisions. Especially without offering some form of relief for something other than symptoms. A person can "live, laugh, love," as much as you'd like them to. They can have all the aspirations and plans in the world and still ultimately not want to be alive. Just because one is afraid to die does not mean they'd want to be alive if they could flip a switch for it. When I go, it will not be because of a momentary lapse in judgment as you imply. It will be something I've contemplated at good length for years on. Outside of pseudonymity, I will tell my acquaintances and friends that I am doing well. I will be doing well. It doesn't change how I ultimately feel about the subject. A "normal" does not invalidate what will happen in moments where someone finally works up the nerve to go through with something, because it isn't insanity that causes suicidal ideation. It's something calculated. Sharing information on how to do it with the least amount of misery helps, it doesn't hurt.
  - superchroma 3y ago
    What you are saying is "don't tell me how I feel", and I'm not. What I am saying is that I don't care how you feel because the internal experience isn't a universal one. Do it, or don't, I don't actually care, but don't come around participating in discussions about rules and policy for a world you're prepared to leave behind. There are actually vulnerable people throwing good things away, who might actually be helped, and those who the approach you prescribe (the status quo) lets down.
    - caslon 3y ago

lozenge 3y ago

This site was covered in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3y6SsGAWks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3y6SsGAWks And in NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/09/us/where-the-despairing-log-on.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/09/us/where-the-...

quietpain 3y ago
Entered the forum title in google, google refuses to show content and shows a single link to "findahelpline.com" I'm in Belgium, btw - suicide capital of Europe.
- tropsis 3y ago
  Luckily duckduckgo still returns the forum as top result.
  - ericfrazier 3y ago
    I believe it's https://sanctioned-suicide.net/ https://sanctioned-suicide.net/
DueDilligence 3y ago
[dead]

verisimi 3y ago

Wow - the images on that BBC article are so bad. They are processing them, adding a background, effects, lots of 'blue'.... Why? It gives the impression of a light magazine article, not news.

the-dude 3y ago
I can hardly imagine the people who are depicted would have consented were they still alive ... tasteless indeed.
HtmlProgrammer 3y ago
Those are the spooky internet hacker colours
renewiltord 3y ago
It’s to distinguish photos of the deceased from photos of other people of interest to the story. Seems fine to me.

baobabKoodaa 3y ago

Are people not allowed to discuss their suicidal thoughts? Or, they are allowed, but only certain pre-approved opinions? Particularly, anti-suicide opinions are allowed while pro-suicide opinions are "illegal"? People should have the right to choose what they want to do with their own body, including the choice to kill themselves. Suicidal thoughts will not disappear by simply outlawing the public expression of them. You are merely pushing people more into the fringes, when you should be attempting to pull them out.

zirgs 3y ago
> People should have the right to choose what they want to do with their own body, including the choice to kill themselves. Many suicide attempt survivors don't try it again.
- tremon 3y ago
  Nor do the successful ones
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  Because it's hard and society makes it as hard as possible to do it in a dignified way without lots of suffering. It's not as easy as you think, even when you are suffering. Being an empty walking corpse but technically living isn't any better than going through with it.
  - zirgs 3y ago
    Those who really want to die - will find a way. But there should be obstacles to discourage those who have temporary problems. I mean - we can agree that if your crush rejects you when you're 16 years old - that isn't a good reason to take your own life. But if you're terminally ill and don't have much time left anyway then suicide is totally OK.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

TheAceOfHearts 3y ago

I don't think this is a topic which can be discussed effectively. Most platforms ban any discussion of the topic, even those who claim to support free speech will shut it down. But little is actually done to help people besides telling them to go to therapy or call some phone number. Do people really think that if they restrict access to methods of suicide people will magically get better? If that's all that a society is doing then they're simply delaying the inevitable or condemning the person to continue suffering. Worse yet, you drown someone in psychiatric drugs that kill the soul, leaving behind a walking corpse. And we pretend like it's some sort of mercy because there's an undead zombie. Even if it's but a shell of the former person. The most likely outcome is that nothing major will change, and people will continue to lament the suicides. Maybe people wouldn't commit suicide if they had actual help. But most of these people have probably been abandoned and isolated from society. Within the harsh garden of reality not all plants are able to flourish.

onethought 3y ago
It was shown in 1974 (Phillips) that suicide rate increased after reporting on it in the media. There is a correlation between it being present and accessible as an idea and increase in attempts.
- coldtea 3y ago
  People that will opt for suicide because they become aware from it through the media, are already depressed and feel defeated in life. Following with an action or not is then a technical matter. If the media didn't report on suicide, and they didn't pick it up and go for it, they'd still be living in hell mentally. So, real help would be more about helping them not feel like that (and even more so, to not live in circumstances that cause them to feel like that), than sweeping reports of suicide under the carpet.
  - onethought 3y ago
    I’m sorry, suicide has been shown to be much more acute activity than you are implying. Statistically if you stop someone, or thwart an attempt they do not try again the majority of the time. Any action we do to reduce suicides really does save lives.

Nextgrid 3y ago

A suicide-themed forum shouldn't be a problem in a healthy society. If the presence of a suicide forum is what drives people to suicide then there's something very wrong and it's not the forum that is the problem. However, addressing the underlying issues that drive people to suicide is not only difficult but would also be bad for business and entrenched interests, so it's easier to blame the symptom instead.

charcircuit 3y ago

>Failure to act More like the BBC should mind its business as running a forum like this in the US is legal to do.

hnlmorg 3y ago
It’s a news outlet. Minding other peoples business is it’s business.

tropsis 3y ago

People who have lost someone to suicide often seek someone to blame, yet they seldom consider that the person may have had their reasons, most possibly unrelated to that forum. The forum serves as a vital outlet for individuals enduring difficult times, potentially saving more lives than it has taken. Nonetheless, some non-suicidal individuals aim to erase it merely due to personal dislike. It's bewildering.

Nursie 3y ago
The story talks about a few things which make it likely that the forum is contributory - a user is described as using information from the forum to frustrate a mental health evaluation, and in taking advice on an effective method of ending their lives. It's not personal dislike so much as it seems like facilitation. Advice on how to fake it through a mental health assessment, which may otherwise have lead to help being given, seems particularly harmful.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  It's because there is no real "help" being given there. Mental health services in many places are just "if you are really suicidal, we lock you up, otherwise we do nothing"... faking an assessment so you don't get institutionalised and get brain damage from all the pyschiatric drugs and end up a zombie is a pretty good idea IMO What kind of help do you think they would give if they evaluate your mental health is poor?
  - Nursie 3y ago
    If you hide your intent to kill yourself then nobody can help. And if you guide others in how to hide it, you’re increasing the likelihood they will die by their own hands. It’s not a good thing to do.
- tropsis 3y ago
  I don't see any problem with that. Information that increases personal autonomy should be available to anyone, everywhere, and for any reason. When you talk about "help being given," I suppose you are referring to drugs that don't work for most and therapy that cannot address the underlying problems.

Borrible 3y ago

"The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night." Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil "Not to be born at all Is best, far best that can befall, Next best, when born, with least delay To trace the backward way. For when youth passes with its giddy train, Troubles on troubles follow, toils on toils, Pain, pain forever pain; And none escapes life's coils. Envy, sedition, strife, Carnage and war, make up the tale of life." Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus Nonetheless, I sense a certain bias in the living for their existence. Probably an evolutionary advantage over the dead.

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

computerfriend 3y ago

I think this is just propaganda for the upcoming Online Safety Bill.

blackshaw 3y ago
Yeah, it's quite hilarious that this article's only critique of the OSB is to quote someone saying that it doesn't go far enough.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Heyso 3y ago

Thinking about banning the forum instead of trying understand the stories, the pain, how we could help is stupid. I feel like again "peoples" wabt to remove the red flare instead of going for the root cause. Because it is much easier. This is very present for mental health. Ignore the cause, just fet some surgery and a lot of medicine until it get worse and you die. Change you way of living, explore past traumas, question your strongest beliefs ? Hell no. Better ban a forum and call it fixed.

blackshaw 3y ago

Here we go again: Alex Jones is being a dick? Disgraceful - we need to censor the internet. Cloudflare is protecting a Neo-Nazi website from being DDOSed? There's no such thing as neutrality - we need to censor the internet. Journalists are getting "harassed"? This must be stopped - we need to censor the internet. Someone I don't like got elected? The problem is "disinformation" - we need to censor the internet. Some guy in Scotland made an idiotic and tasteless joke involving his dog? We can't allow this kind of content - we need to censor the internet. Joe Rogan is platforming the wrong people? They mustn't be allowed to spread their bad ideas - we need to censor the internet. Something, something, Russia? Censor the internet! Censor the internet!!! But wait: now suicidal people are getting suicide information from a web forum? You'd have never have guessed, but the answer is... to censor the internet! Idk, I think that maybe the issue isn't the issue, these people just want more power to censor the internet.