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> I highly doubt that even if Hamas shot more missiles after a ceasefire, any Israeli civilian would die from it. Based on what? What do you think rockets tha

> I highly doubt that even if Hamas shot more missiles after a ceasefire, any Israeli civilian would die from it. Based on what? What do you think rockets that Hamas fires at Israel are made for? Fireworks or something? I witnessed two of my coworkers die because of a Palestinian suicide bomber (whom I also marginally knew) and a bunch of people wounded. Another time an IED went off in the garbage bin not far from the bus stop I had to get off. Luckily, nobody was harmed. Palestinians are getting more military aid, and it's becoming more sophisticated and hard to counter. Israel doesn't have a good outcome for this Gazan flair-up. Everything they do will suck for them. Ceasefire: in the short term, more Israelis die, but it will also be seeing as them caving in to Hamas. It will embolden and encourage the other side to do more of this. Going in and killing as many of Hamas members as they can will restore the status quo for a few years. But Hamas v2, or Fatah, or PIJ or w/e new thing will inevitably take place of present day Hamas, because killing Hamas doesn't solve the problem -- and here it's important to loop back to the fact that Hamas does represent Palestinians. They aren't an oddball. They are the natural result of Gazans, and especially the refugees from Gaza wanting a rematch. The only way this problem can be solved is if UN initiates and enough countries follow through with the plan of dismantling all Gazan local authorities, while replacing them by international temporary ones. Gazan population today cannot be trusted to create a government, police force or courts that will not do the same thing Hamas is doing now. Just like Japan or Germany after WW2 they need an external supervisor to make them rebuild and rejoin the world community. But, UN will never as much as even discuss such a program. And the cycle will continue. > UNRWA Your Wiki reading is very selective. Also, your understanding of how refugees interact with the local authorities is based on fairy-tales. Any refugee in order to be given this status needs to show that their life is in danger or something like that. Conflicts are eventually resolved, and you cannot make claims about your life being in danger a decade ago. That just won't be enough to get you a refugee status. Of course you cannot inherit it from parents... unless you are under UNRWA umbrella. What happens to someone who fails to prove they are eligible for this status? -- expulsion or jail. In European countries it would be difficult to get rid of someone once they are there. So, they might be staying in a camp for years (my wife volunteered in one such camp on Lesbos). But if you are in a less "welcoming" country they might just bring you to the border and leave you there. Similarly, it's a fairy-tale that UN decisions "can't make anyone stateless". It's right in front of you, couple million people in and around Israel. But you chose to "believe"... But it's not limited to this situation with Israel. Take for example the Hague convention on adoptions. All signatories are required to not adopt children from another country-signatory w/o that country's permit. But, not all countries grant citizenship at birth. If you are born in such a country and nobody knows anything about your parents -- tough luck. There are plenty of UN-affiliated bodies who beat themselves on the chest and declare that no child should be stateless, and yet they are in the millions. I know this because we adopted, and I know how the system is broken in many ways also because of the lack of insight on the part of people writing these conventions. > right of return It doesn't matter that it was created after some time. It was created before the window of opportunity closed. That's enough. The fact that you didn't know anything about, while this is one of the key problems in Israel-Palestinian conflict only emphasizes how much you are not competent to discuss it.

orwin 3y ago
No, they have to show they cannot return to their home. The Georgia war ended a long time ago, but Georgian who used to live in occupied Georgia are still considered refugees. And you sidestepped my comment about UNRWA. They have nothing to do with the Palestinian refugee status or the right to return, yet you attack them. Also sidestepped is the acknowledgement that you have to have a Palestinian state to make Palestinians refugees living in the West Bank not refugees. This cannot happen as long as the two state solution do not exist (and the best solution would be one based on the one drafted during the Oslo accords, don't you agree?) I think we agree on putting Gaza under UN supervision, however your first comment was about denying the whole Palestine any governmental right, including the West Bank, because of Fatah's struggle. Its like your comments on Fatah, I find it incredibly interesting that a nation who violently fought for its right to existence would deny the same right to another.
- crabbone 3y ago
  UNRWA is the label for multiple issues related to Palestinian refugees, including the right to return. Yes, they have everything to do with it. The sole purpose of this organization is to deal with Palestinian refugees, which UN made a special case, separate from all other refugees. It's literally called "United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East". Does it sound like they have nothing to do with Palestinian refugees? I mean, unironically, UN is full of b/s and nonsense. W/o specific knowledge of this organization, I'd say they might have been unrelated to Palestinian refugees, despite their name... but they are not. Did their officials create the disaster in Palestine themselves (including the right of return)? -- No, they are too dumb to accomplish anything of such magnitude. Best they can do is organize soccer games in refugee camps, you know, instead of providing decent accommodations / healthcare / teaching useful skills or language etc. That's their MO: being totally useless and sometimes harmful through sheer stupidity. But they are the UN's implementation of UN's policies, including the right of return. Whenever any Israeli talks about UNRWA, they don't mean the worthless soccer games and photo-ops with underage starving refugees. They mean UN policies represented by this organization. > Oslo accords That ship sailed long time ago. At the time, there was a hope that Palestinians could self-govern and become a responsible country. Today, Gaza to a larger degree, but West Bank is trailing not to far behind, are sliding into the same condition where Syria and Lebanon are: a "failed state". A plot of land ran by gangs of terrorists. Thanks Iran, mostly. But stupidity of various international organizations duped into supporting and financing terrorists in these lands might be a close second. I've heard Macron is pushing towards anti-ISIS coalition taking control of Gaza after the purge of Hamas. Of all plans I've heard so far for Gaza, this is the best way forward IMO. > a nation who violently fought for its right to existence would deny the same right to another. Read it again. I said temporary. Gaza and West Bank today are unsalvageable w/o international intervention. If they want to not die out / devolve into a shooting range where everyone and their uncle test new weapons, they need to accept a foreign rule. Nobody's denying them existence. Much in the same way how post-WW2 government of Germany and Japan didn't try to kill off Germans or Japanese.

orwin 3y ago

No, they have to show they cannot return to their home. The Georgia war ended a long time ago, but Georgian who used to live in occupied Georgia are still considered refugees. And you sidestepped my comment about UNRWA. They have nothing to do with the Palestinian refugee status or the right to return, yet you attack them. Also sidestepped is the acknowledgement that you have to have a Palestinian state to make Palestinians refugees living in the West Bank not refugees. This cannot happen as long as the two state solution do not exist (and the best solution would be one based on the one drafted during the Oslo accords, don't you agree?) I think we agree on putting Gaza under UN supervision, however your first comment was about denying the whole Palestine any governmental right, including the West Bank, because of Fatah's struggle. Its like your comments on Fatah, I find it incredibly interesting that a nation who violently fought for its right to existence would deny the same right to another.

crabbone 3y ago
UNRWA is the label for multiple issues related to Palestinian refugees, including the right to return. Yes, they have everything to do with it. The sole purpose of this organization is to deal with Palestinian refugees, which UN made a special case, separate from all other refugees. It's literally called "United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East". Does it sound like they have nothing to do with Palestinian refugees? I mean, unironically, UN is full of b/s and nonsense. W/o specific knowledge of this organization, I'd say they might have been unrelated to Palestinian refugees, despite their name... but they are not. Did their officials create the disaster in Palestine themselves (including the right of return)? -- No, they are too dumb to accomplish anything of such magnitude. Best they can do is organize soccer games in refugee camps, you know, instead of providing decent accommodations / healthcare / teaching useful skills or language etc. That's their MO: being totally useless and sometimes harmful through sheer stupidity. But they are the UN's implementation of UN's policies, including the right of return. Whenever any Israeli talks about UNRWA, they don't mean the worthless soccer games and photo-ops with underage starving refugees. They mean UN policies represented by this organization. > Oslo accords That ship sailed long time ago. At the time, there was a hope that Palestinians could self-govern and become a responsible country. Today, Gaza to a larger degree, but West Bank is trailing not to far behind, are sliding into the same condition where Syria and Lebanon are: a "failed state". A plot of land ran by gangs of terrorists. Thanks Iran, mostly. But stupidity of various international organizations duped into supporting and financing terrorists in these lands might be a close second. I've heard Macron is pushing towards anti-ISIS coalition taking control of Gaza after the purge of Hamas. Of all plans I've heard so far for Gaza, this is the best way forward IMO. > a nation who violently fought for its right to existence would deny the same right to another. Read it again. I said temporary. Gaza and West Bank today are unsalvageable w/o international intervention. If they want to not die out / devolve into a shooting range where everyone and their uncle test new weapons, they need to accept a foreign rule. Nobody's denying them existence. Much in the same way how post-WW2 government of Germany and Japan didn't try to kill off Germans or Japanese.