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> If they do that, more Israelis will die I highly doubt that even if Hamas shot more missiles after a ceasefire, any Israeli civilian would die from it. >

by orwin 3y ago

> If they do that, more Israelis will die I highly doubt that even if Hamas shot more missiles after a ceasefire, any Israeli civilian would die from it. > Fatah are as much terrorists as Hamas is Disagree on that. Hamas essentially is anti-zionist (and anti-semitic) and use terror attack because they kill jews (they want to kill them all, as established once again by the recent pogrom). Fatah essentially want a two-state solution. They are revolutionary and push for an armed struggle, but if you call them terrorists, then FARCS are terrorist and French/Polish resistants were terrorists. > They enjoy great support and love from their loyal subjects. Hamas had 30M$ a month for a dozen years, yeah, i'm sure it's grassroot support and no indoctrination... > You simply don't have a clue what this is about. I indeed had no clue about that. Obviously i only know about UNRWA as a relief organization who provides training, food and money to hospital and schools in the middle east, i did not know it was only for palestinians (because the school/hospital i know work with them also used to help young jewish women and men w/o formal or secular education, and poor catholics). But "You simply don't have a clue what" refugee means. it doesnt "expire" after 10 years (this would be so weird) (read that: https://www.unhcr.org/media/convention-and-protocol-relating-status-refugees https://www.unhcr.org/media/convention-and-protocol-relating...). Are you conflating refugee, the international status, with the "refugee status" a national government grant after you are recognized as one? Because here how it work: a Palestinian have his refugee status recognized in France (thanks to UNWRA, it's easy if he can prove he is palestininan). From this point onwards, he has a residency card, and ten years of basic healthcare and minimum income. After those 10 years, if he did not get citizenship, he goes to Ofpra, ask again, and get it again. My mother hosted (or taught French to) different war refugees from Georgia until 2021, so hopefully they did not suddenly stopped being war refugees in 2018, or else the associations whe work with really screwed up. Still, i have not clue about that part of UNWRA: so i read about it for 5 minutes: UN cannot create statelessness (weird word). This is illegal under the Geneva convention, so as long as Palestine is not a nation, its hard to revoke the provision that make Palestinian refugees (because the million or so living in Gaza or in the west bank cannot be recognized as Palestinian as long as Palestine doesn't exist). Also UNWRA has nothing to do with the right to return. It's was created after (a over a hundred UN resolution after), so you're damn right i "don't have a clue what this is about", but a quick google-fu would have helped you too. By the way, this was both rude and wrong, which is the worst kind of rude. > You obviously don't live there. Have never been there. I don't, I have. Only for a couple days (that's also when i started reading Hareetz), my father was denied entry at the last moment and i choose to come back once it was clear he wouldn't be allowed to enter at all (making pre-90s lebanon the only Middle-East country he was able to enter due to having "Jerusalem" as place of birth on his passport), sadly the place he was born in was destroyed in 2020 during a "resettlement" and he will never see it.

crabbone 3y ago
> I highly doubt that even if Hamas shot more missiles after a ceasefire, any Israeli civilian would die from it. Based on what? What do you think rockets that Hamas fires at Israel are made for? Fireworks or something? I witnessed two of my coworkers die because of a Palestinian suicide bomber (whom I also marginally knew) and a bunch of people wounded. Another time an IED went off in the garbage bin not far from the bus stop I had to get off. Luckily, nobody was harmed. Palestinians are getting more military aid, and it's becoming more sophisticated and hard to counter. Israel doesn't have a good outcome for this Gazan flair-up. Everything they do will suck for them. Ceasefire: in the short term, more Israelis die, but it will also be seeing as them caving in to Hamas. It will embolden and encourage the other side to do more of this. Going in and killing as many of Hamas members as they can will restore the status quo for a few years. But Hamas v2, or Fatah, or PIJ or w/e new thing will inevitably take place of present day Hamas, because killing Hamas doesn't solve the problem -- and here it's important to loop back to the fact that Hamas does represent Palestinians. They aren't an oddball. They are the natural result of Gazans, and especially the refugees from Gaza wanting a rematch. The only way this problem can be solved is if UN initiates and enough countries follow through with the plan of dismantling all Gazan local authorities, while replacing them by international temporary ones. Gazan population today cannot be trusted to create a government, police force or courts that will not do the same thing Hamas is doing now. Just like Japan or Germany after WW2 they need an external supervisor to make them rebuild and rejoin the world community. But, UN will never as much as even discuss such a program. And the cycle will continue. > UNRWA Your Wiki reading is very selective. Also, your understanding of how refugees interact with the local authorities is based on fairy-tales. Any refugee in order to be given this status needs to show that their life is in danger or something like that. Conflicts are eventually resolved, and you cannot make claims about your life being in danger a decade ago. That just won't be enough to get you a refugee status. Of course you cannot inherit it from parents... unless you are under UNRWA umbrella. What happens to someone who fails to prove they are eligible for this status? -- expulsion or jail. In European countries it would be difficult to get rid of someone once they are there. So, they might be staying in a camp for years (my wife volunteered in one such camp on Lesbos). But if you are in a less "welcoming" country they might just bring you to the border and leave you there. Similarly, it's a fairy-tale that UN decisions "can't make anyone stateless". It's right in front of you, couple million people in and around Israel. But you chose to "believe"... But it's not limited to this situation with Israel. Take for example the Hague convention on adoptions. All signatories are required to not adopt children from another country-signatory w/o that country's permit. But, not all countries grant citizenship at birth. If you are born in such a country and nobody knows anything about your parents -- tough luck. There are plenty of UN-affiliated bodies who beat themselves on the chest and declare that no child should be stateless, and yet they are in the millions. I know this because we adopted, and I know how the system is broken in many ways also because of the lack of insight on the part of people writing these conventions. > right of return It doesn't matter that it was created after some time. It was created before the window of opportunity closed. That's enough. The fact that you didn't know anything about, while this is one of the key problems in Israel-Palestinian conflict only emphasizes how much you are not competent to discuss it.

by orwin 3y ago

crabbone 3y ago

> I highly doubt that even if Hamas shot more missiles after a ceasefire, any Israeli civilian would die from it. Based on what? What do you think rockets that Hamas fires at Israel are made for? Fireworks or something? I witnessed two of my coworkers die because of a Palestinian suicide bomber (whom I also marginally knew) and a bunch of people wounded. Another time an IED went off in the garbage bin not far from the bus stop I had to get off. Luckily, nobody was harmed. Palestinians are getting more military aid, and it's becoming more sophisticated and hard to counter. Israel doesn't have a good outcome for this Gazan flair-up. Everything they do will suck for them. Ceasefire: in the short term, more Israelis die, but it will also be seeing as them caving in to Hamas. It will embolden and encourage the other side to do more of this. Going in and killing as many of Hamas members as they can will restore the status quo for a few years. But Hamas v2, or Fatah, or PIJ or w/e new thing will inevitably take place of present day Hamas, because killing Hamas doesn't solve the problem -- and here it's important to loop back to the fact that Hamas does represent Palestinians. They aren't an oddball. They are the natural result of Gazans, and especially the refugees from Gaza wanting a rematch. The only way this problem can be solved is if UN initiates and enough countries follow through with the plan of dismantling all Gazan local authorities, while replacing them by international temporary ones. Gazan population today cannot be trusted to create a government, police force or courts that will not do the same thing Hamas is doing now. Just like Japan or Germany after WW2 they need an external supervisor to make them rebuild and rejoin the world community. But, UN will never as much as even discuss such a program. And the cycle will continue. > UNRWA Your Wiki reading is very selective. Also, your understanding of how refugees interact with the local authorities is based on fairy-tales. Any refugee in order to be given this status needs to show that their life is in danger or something like that. Conflicts are eventually resolved, and you cannot make claims about your life being in danger a decade ago. That just won't be enough to get you a refugee status. Of course you cannot inherit it from parents... unless you are under UNRWA umbrella. What happens to someone who fails to prove they are eligible for this status? -- expulsion or jail. In European countries it would be difficult to get rid of someone once they are there. So, they might be staying in a camp for years (my wife volunteered in one such camp on Lesbos). But if you are in a less "welcoming" country they might just bring you to the border and leave you there. Similarly, it's a fairy-tale that UN decisions "can't make anyone stateless". It's right in front of you, couple million people in and around Israel. But you chose to "believe"... But it's not limited to this situation with Israel. Take for example the Hague convention on adoptions. All signatories are required to not adopt children from another country-signatory w/o that country's permit. But, not all countries grant citizenship at birth. If you are born in such a country and nobody knows anything about your parents -- tough luck. There are plenty of UN-affiliated bodies who beat themselves on the chest and declare that no child should be stateless, and yet they are in the millions. I know this because we adopted, and I know how the system is broken in many ways also because of the lack of insight on the part of people writing these conventions. > right of return It doesn't matter that it was created after some time. It was created before the window of opportunity closed. That's enough. The fact that you didn't know anything about, while this is one of the key problems in Israel-Palestinian conflict only emphasizes how much you are not competent to discuss it.