15 ms·

Mazda slaps developer with cease-and-desist for DIY smart home integration

331 points by heshiebee 3y ago

throwawaymaroon 3y ago
[dead]
jonoc 3y ago
"Even if I believe that what I'm doing is morally correct and legally protected, legal processes still have a financial cost. I can't afford to take on that financial risk for something that I do in my spare time to help others." - this is very logical and exactly what I would have done but it still makes me very sad that this is the way the world works right now :(
- pdonis 3y ago
  This seems like a case where an organization like the EFF could help. Does anyone know if they are aware of this specific incident?
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    The EFF would still need a defendant to defend. It sounds like that person is not interested in pursuing a legal battle, so we have already met the end of this road.
    - happytoexplain 3y ago
      I see this attitude a lot where legal is involved (which is a lot of places). It's a very peculiar sort of "if this then that" which seems to subvert normal human communication. E.g. in this case, a standard human train of thought would be that, because one of the reasons given for not pursuing it is funding, the EFF might offer to fund this person, who, circumstances now being different, might then agree to be the defendant. Now maybe there is a problem with that, but my point is that your response seems to choose not to acknowledge it. I don't think it's malicious - I think there is just something about the way legal works that trains people to think and speak in this slightly non-human way.
      - thomastjeffery 3y ago
        In my perspective, it's less about the presentation, and more about the motivations involved. If the EFF is motivated to reach out to the original DMCA recipient, then they could definitely present this avenue. That leads us to the next question, is the original DMCA recipient interested in pursuing a (now funded) defense? If not, are they interested in handing it off to someone else? Who? Would that person be an effective defendant? Really, what we are doing here is speculating on one person's level of disinterest in pursuing the legal defense of their work.
        tough 3y ago
        What about another person willing to continue with a fork? What about a DAO specifically built for that purpose exclusively? Just looking how to fuck back those lawyers
        thomastjeffery 3y ago
        I would love to see that happen. I also, unfortunately, doubt it will.
        tough 3y ago
        Seems it would require to fork the whole home assistant repo https://github.com/home-assistant/core/pull/101849#issuecomment-1761718315 https://github.com/home-assistant/core/pull/101849#issuecomm...
    - andix 3y ago
      They could transfer the ownership of the code to someone else. This person/entity could put it back up and wait for Mazda attacking them.
      - evan_ 3y ago
        Wouldn't Mazda then go after both parties?
        thomastjeffery 3y ago
        The tool Mazda is using is DMCA. That applies explicitly to whomever is hosting the content. More specifically, it applies to whomever Mazda sends the DMCA notice to.
        andix 3y ago
        Usually you can't go after people for creating content, even if it's a copyright violation. They also can't "uncreate" it, they can't delete the concepts from their brain. You can only stop them from publishing/selling it. In this case the code was on GitHub before, so they wouldn't even need to give the code to the new target entity, this entity could just copy it from an undisclosed person who has a copy.
      - oh_sigh 3y ago
        Transfer of ownership isn't even required, since it was open source code hosted on github. All someone needs to do is re-host the files, and wait for the DMCA notice to push back on it.
        andix 3y ago
        True. It should also be possible to maintain it outside of the US, where the DMCA doesn't apply. In some European countries Mazda probably wouldn't have a lot of options to take it down.
    - pdonis 3y ago
      They could reach out to him and offer to pay his legal expenses. They could even offer the services of lawyers they are familiar with. IIRC they have done that in similar cases in the past.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  As President Andrew Jackson once said, "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it." As it turns out, you need both the piece of paper underwriting your rights and the force necessary to exercise them.
  - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
    My freedom and financial future aren't the kinds of things I'd like to test their enforcement with. We need laws that prevent this type of bullying behavior.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      You're back to square one: You have to exercise the laws preventing that bullying. Lines of ink on plant fiber by themselves have never stopped anyone.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        So why don't you do this then? The author doesn't have to be the one to take the risk: YOU can do it yourself! Just get a copy of the code and post it up on your own account, under your own name.
- all2 3y ago
  The process is the punishment. Average Joe cannot go toe-to-toe in the legal system as it stands right now. The one with the most money nearly always wins, and - as in this case - the threat of financially ruinous litigation is enough.
  - ronsor 3y ago
    And the solution is to nerf copyright into the dirt like you'd nerf an overpowered item in a game.
    - AceJohnny2 3y ago
      Are you aware that copyright law is the foundation of FOSS licenses?
      - jimnotgym 3y ago
        You wouldn't need it if copyright didn't exist in the first place
        AceJohnny2 3y ago
        Of course you would. For example, thanks to copyright law, Linksys was forced to share their Linux customizations to run on router hardware, which led to the creation of the OpenWRT project. Without copyright law, any actor can take your open system and close it.
        Filligree 3y ago
        A lot of people are fine with that. Look at everyone who uses the BSD or MIT license.
        AceJohnny2 3y ago
        The fact that they have the option to choose it is different than it being the only possibility.
- throw_a_grenade 3y ago
  He should have added "I believe buying Mazda was a mistake and I encourage everyone to avoid this brand until they get their Legal together". They need to be deterred. They should know that every time they do this, people will start recommending their competition.
- akira2501 3y ago
  The DMCA has been a net negative for America. It didn't actually afford any of the intended protections to the industries that bought it and it has destroyed the concept of "ownership" in an increasingly digital world.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    And America didn’t just harm itself with DMCA. We all suffer from this mistake.
- alphazard 3y ago
  I think we've made a mistake by linking our real world identities to the software we write. If the author released this under a pseudonym, and hosted the git servers in a country without strong copyright enforcement, there's very little Mazda could do to take it down. It's too late for that now since Mazda knows who he really is.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    It's not too late for that; the author just doesn't want to be bothered. If he really wanted to, he could move the code to that other country, and put it up under a pseudonym. If anyone asks, he can just claim he doesn't know who that person is, and he has nothing to do with it: how can they disprove him without literally spying on him? The code is open-source: literally anyone could have made a fork of the repo while it was still up, and then posted it somewhere else.
    - alphazard 3y ago
      It's too late for that to be a realistic defense. The Mazda legal team already has a target that they can go after for any further developments with the source code. This post acknowledges that he received the cease and desist letter. The issue isn't just whether you win in court, it's also how much of your time and money is wasted fighting a corporate legal operation. Arguably, a random person publishing the source code would create additional problems for him. An effective defense has to protect your time and money. One such defense is to never let your real identity be plucked from obscurity and fixated on by a legal team.
- prepend 3y ago
  I wish GitHub would do more to protect developers from this bullshit. I know they aren’t required to, but I remember the olden days when more companies would fight dmca requests. But I suppose they were much less common then. The EFF might help, but even expecting individuals to appeal to the EFF is probably too much work and too much risk. I’d like to see GitHub partner with EFF to have first look at these requests and choose to fight ones that seem invalid. I’d donate to they cause.
  - maxerickson 3y ago
    What's it look like? The next step to fight this is for the user of the Github service to file a counter notice and wait to see if Mazda files a copyright infringement lawsuit against them. It probably doesn't make sense for Github to indemnify them, and short of that, there's not really a lot of convincing they can do if someone isn't interested in engaging in litigation with some huge company.
    - prepend 3y ago
      They could auto file a counter notice. They could provide free legal council to help the user file. They could route to EFF or others to file counter notices. They could even sue for damages from false claims since API can’t be copyrighted. There’s tons they could do. Microsoft has immense resources and far greater than Mazda.
      - maxerickson 3y ago
        They don't have standing to auto file a counter notice. And then if someone accidentally publishes something copyrighted to github, they probably don't want to go through a lawsuit. I looked at the code some, there are some app secrets stored and used, so they probably have at least a thin claim.
        prepend 3y ago
        They can certainly evaluate the request and deem it spurious, as long as they are willing to defend their decision. They can also autogenerate the counter claim so an author just needs to click “dispute.” I’m sure there are lots of valid dmca complaints against GitHub repos, like any site that allows hosting random files. But I think if GitHub wants to encourage programming, they need to invest and be more proactive in supporting programmers from people like the jerk lawyer at Mazda (or probably some stupid “ip protection” consultant) who filed this spurious seeming complaint.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dtgriscom 3y ago
  Right or wrong, the legal system (in the US and elsewhere) is to be feared and avoided. I've served jury duty several times in the US, and each time it looked like we might be empaneled, the defendant settled with the DA. I've no idea if they were actually guilty of what they were accused of, but in any case they decided that being deemed guilty was less onerous than going through (and paying for counsel in) a jury trial.
- j1elo 3y ago
  > this is very logical and exactly what I would have done I made a comment regarding this, before realizing yours, so I'm kinda repeating myself here, but it's something that piques my curiosity: What would stop you from just continuing in a different repo (even different host like Gitee), with a pseudonymous, and claim that you have no idea who's that mysterious person that forked and continued working on the project?
madrox 3y ago
I can only imagine Mazda's stake in this is that the OSS project is doing something that Mazda would like to monetize. Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? The worst thing to happen to home automation was companies trying to lock customers into their ecosystem without greater interoperability.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? It could be argued Mazda doesn't want to be on the hook for end-user customizations that may potentially jeopardize safety. Now yes, if a driver modifies his car's code or the results of that code and causes an accident that's on him and not Mazda. But you and I and everyone here all know the media will jump at the chance to plaster sensational headlines for click monies.
  - bobsmooth 3y ago
    If the API can do something to make the car unsafe that's on Mazda.
    - klyrs 3y ago
      If you void the warranty by touching the API, they've put it back on you.
    - Dalewyn 3y ago
      Thanks for beautifully proving my point.
- sliken 3y ago
  Mazda is likely jealous of BMW for charging monthly for seat heaters, OSS tools to control the car threaten that.
  - salzig 3y ago
    BMW doesn't anymore: https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-charging-for-warming-cheeks/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-c... Looks like the pain was big enough.
walterbell 3y ago
Cue TV commercial from Mazda competitors: Own The Road with shots of winding scenic roads, auto dashboard and tripped-out Home Assistant dashboard. Many manufacturers appear to be OK with especially resourceful owners optimizing their cars in this way. Home Assistant's integration library features at least six automakers, including BMW and Volvo, while Tesla recently published details of its new, official, open API for third-party developers to employ.
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
> Mazda has invested tremendous time and resources to develop confidential and proprietary information including computer code used by company. Recently certain Mazda Information, including proprietary API information, was used to create code and information posted to GitHub.com identified in repository of bdr99 ([private]). This repository contains code developed in python (https://github.com/bdr99/pymazda https://github.com/bdr99/pymazda) and javascript (https://github.com/bdr99/node-mymazda https://github.com/bdr99/node-mymazda), and appears to have been uploaded and used to create computer code associated with home-assistant.io and mobile applications. MNAO analyzed some of the code and determined that the code provides functionality same as what is currently in Apple App Store and Google Play App Store. We are requesting immediate removal of code from Github, brd99. Since when is an API call proprietary information? Can they even claim a DMCA against it? That's like claiming DMCA for telling someone how to flick a light switch.
- deepsun 3y ago
  And I believe Oracle vs. Google re. Java API ruled out that APIs cannot be copyrightable either.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- liquidpele 3y ago
  It’s almost certainly not a legal takedown request, but this is always been an issue with the DMCA… it’s far too easy to make fraudulent requests, and there is almost never real punishment for them because they require financial harm, which is going to exclude anything except other companies.
gnabgib 3y ago
This has been discussed a couple of times: "Removal of Mazda Connected Services integration" (270 points, 78 comments, 10 days ago)[0], "Mazda's DMCA takedown kills a hobbyist's smart car API tool" (83 points, 27 comments, 6 days ago)[1] - the first being the original blog post on Home Assistant, the second referencing that blog post, maybe adding more content and this article referencing both sources (but adding little) [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37921584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37921584
- blorenz 3y ago
  Thank you for the links. I've been traveling recently and missed those previous discussions. I'm glad this one was in my purview as the topic at hand is near to me.
otikik 3y ago
I am now pissed that I have a Mazda. Mission accomplished, legal team, you undid all the efforts of the engineering and marketing departments in one single action.
- hermitcrab 3y ago
  I've had 2 Mazdas in the past. A bit less likely to buy another one now.
- aksss 3y ago
  Which is ironic for Mazda, because at least like model year 2019 and prior you could literally telnet into the CMU and do all sorts of hacks to it. Whether it was intentional or not, Mazda has enjoyed a bit of a sheen of being kinda hack/maker friendly if you play in that space. https://mazdatweaks.com/serial/ https://mazdatweaks.com/serial/
  - wuuza 3y ago
    They didn't intend it, but they should have since they'd probably end up with a better end-user experience ala Rockbox/LineageOS. The community added some cool features and worked around some glaring bugs until Mazda clamped down by specifically nuking the mods on updates. God forbid anyone embarrass them by making their crappy software better, like pausing a stream when "Mute" was hit instead of letting the stream run while muted. How about this? If you used a USB stick full of music it showed the files in FAT order, not sorted by filename or ID3 tags. It would also just randomly forget the resume point, and revert to playing the "first" file on the disk. So instead of Amon Amarth blasting my ears in this case, I had to both create a file named "0000Silence.mp3", and run a special command after every disk update to rewrite the FAT so the FAT order equaled alphabetical order.
    - daleswanson 3y ago
      > It would also just randomly forget the resume point, and revert to playing the "first" file on the disk. Is there any hack that fixes this? It's my number 1 annoyance with my Mazda.
Tabular-Iceberg 3y ago
DMCA? Does Mazda think we're going to start downloading cars because of this?
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  I mean, we wouldn’t do that, would we?
- sobkas 3y ago
  > DMCA? Does Mazda think we're going to start downloading cars because of this? Or do something even worse, have functionality we didn't paid Mazda to have.
daft_pink 3y ago
I would never purchase a Mazda after this.
a2xd94 3y ago
Hey loyal Mazda fan, That money you could be making, yeah we don't like you getting it instead of us, so cough it up! Also, while we're at it, cool idea...thanks for the work! Here's nice thankful lawsuit for your hard work. We'll go ahead and privately fork that repo and totally not rip your functionality off and somehow manage to mess it up while overcharging for it! :) Worst regards, thx for the moneys and screw you, Mazda
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
xbar 3y ago
The marketplace for autos is still broad enough for me to purchase a car that meets my needs. No Mazda does.
- givemeethekeys 3y ago
  Not anymore, thats for sure.
mirkules 3y ago
I've worked for a large OEM, dealing with a large Japanese megacorp that is not Mazda for about two years (actually Mazda was one of our customers too, but I didn't get to work with them directly). This does not amaze me anymore. We spent months agonizing over an interior temperature sensor, which was only used to display the information to the user on a smartphone app. We built both the hardware and software, and it was offered as an add-on at the dealerships. After months of negotiations, after the hardware was already built and the packages assembles, they decided temperature sensors were too inaccurate (+/- 5 degrees F) to use, and that it could present a legal liability. Again, this was nothing else but displaying the information on the app - and the user could then make a decision whether to remote start the car to cool it or heat it (no automatic process took place either). This was at the height of "unintended accelerator" issue in Toyotas, so everyone was walking on egg shells playing it ultra safe to not invite any more lawsuits. What surprises me is that this culture of "playing it safe" remained to this day, some 10 years later (but maybe it shouldn't).
- hirundo 3y ago
  My cheap home thermostat has that frustrating +/- 5 degrees F accuracy. Is it very difficult to build an inexpensive 1 degree sensor?
  - harrisonjackson 3y ago
    I am curious what an "expensive" one would actually cost, too... It is a car so already a large purchase. I'd pay a bit more for an accurate thermostat.
    - mirkules 3y ago
      It's not just material cost, probably different interface to the sensor so factor in some R&D, approvals, etc. Any time anything, no matter how small or innocuous (bracket, cable, screw, some piece of plastic cover, etc), was changed on a vehicle, it meant a different part number, which meant 6-12 months delay. This is because it has to go through all the testing - usability, fatigue, safety, etc all over again. This is why they pick cheap parts - not because they're cheap, but because they are old and got cheaper over the years, because old = already approved, which makes the lead time a lot less.
teeray 3y ago
Hopefully this triggers a Streisand Effect of this code appearing everywhere. Something like “this JPG is also a git repo”
hanszarkov 3y ago
I'm one engineer that won't be buying a Mazda
lfmunoz4 3y ago
Things like this just make me think, if you write code and aren't making money no point in hosting it in US. I.e, just put it on Gitee
activescott 3y ago
I just happen to read about DMCA exemptions legalities recently (which I submitted at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37961007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37961007). Turns out that exemptions to DMCA are recommended every three years. I noticed one especially relevant to this one under the section category of "Proposed New or Expanded Exemptions": > Proposed Class 7: Computer Programs— Vehicle Operational Data > MEMA petitions for a new exemption to ‘‘access, store, and share vehicle operational data, including diagnostic and telematics data’’ from ‘‘a lawfully acquired motorized land vehicle or marine vessel such as a personal automobile or boat, commercial vehicle or vessel, or mechanized agricultural vehicle or vessel.’’ 182 The petition limits circumvention to ‘‘lawful vehicle owners and lessees, or those acting on their behalf.’’ > The Office encourages proponents to develop the legal and factual administrative record in their initial submissions, including describing with specificity the relevant TPMs and whether their presence is adversely affecting noninfringing uses, whether eligible users may access such data through alternate channels that do not require circumvention, and the legal basis for concluding that the proposed uses are likely to be noninfringing. In general, the Office seeks comment on whether the proposed exemption should be adopted, including any proposed regulatory language. - From Page 14, of October 19, 2023 – Notice of Proposed Rulemaking at https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2023-10-19/pdf/2023-22949.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2023-10-19/pdf/2023-2... The US Copyright Office goes on to say *they want feedback on this potential exemption*: > The Office encourages proponents to develop the legal and factual administrative record in their initial submissions, including describing with specificity the relevant TPMs and whether their presence is adversely affecting noninfringing uses, whether eligible users may access such data through alternate channels that do not require circumvention, and the legal basis for concluding that the proposed uses are likely to be noninfringing. In general, the Office seeks comment on whether the proposed exemption should be adopted, including any proposed regulatory language. Note that final sentence!
tommek4077 3y ago
Just dont put your name on projects like this. Had to learn myself the hard way 15 years ago. Just do it, fly under the radar, stay pseudonymous, go the hacker way.
- m4jor 3y ago
  Can't stop the signal!
- asynchronous 3y ago
  You’re right but I’m sad that that is the world we live in.
j1elo 3y ago
How can they really stop this development? I mean, if I were the author, had put my effort and time into solving my own itch and released it as FOSS, only to receive a Cease and Desist, my itch would still probably be there, but GitHub would probably comply and close the repo. So I'd just cease, desist, and my project would suddenly appear again in some other Git server. Surely, without my name on it, and hosted from whatever country seeming less likely to follow up on similar requests.
lovemenot 3y ago
I suspect this decision would have been almost a no-brainer for Mazda execs in Japan. Japanese culture tends to white-list permitted activities. The API was designed for a purpose other than what this developer used it for. Therefore his code is proscribed.
jms703 3y ago
I'm in the market for a new car and I'm deciding between Mazda, Acura, and Toyota. I'm quite curious to see how these other manufacturers are treating developers.
- izacus 3y ago
  Even worse. I mean... What developers? Did you see any?
quantum_state 3y ago
The car maker can void some warranty but it has no right to do what it did. The car is the property of its owner who can do whatever with it.
senorrib 3y ago
Man, this enrages me so much. But I'm glad I live in a third world country where access to legal defense is relatively cheap. Here I would just tell them to piss off and get on with my life.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
> It's unclear what legal basis Mazda has to order a DMCA takedown There's probably none. They're probably just leveraging the high costs of a legal defense to bully individuals into submission. Corporations have armies of lawyers and can afford to spend years fighting in court, this guy can't. The threat of lawsuits is equivalent to a threat to set his money on fire. Check out their "justifications": > The automaker argued that Rothweiler's work contained code that violated its copyrights; used its "proprietary API information" to create more code Seriously doubt that. It's not like they gave this guy access to their source code or internal documents. > and that the integrations provided functionality identical to what currently exists in Mazda's own mobile apps Not protected by copyright.
kazinator 3y ago
> GitHub (where the software was hosted) I.e. actually GitHub took the stuff down, not Mazda. Self-host your shit for Pete's sake.
not_your_mentat 3y ago
Wasn't the "prioritary API" but resolved in Oracle vs Google? I was under the impression that an API is like a phone book and a you cannot copyright a collection of phone numbers. How is the API claim legally defensible?
- vimax 3y ago
  I had that thought too, but that case involved Google reimplementing a published API. This case is about using an unpublished API.
  - not_your_mentat 3y ago
    Wouldn't putting it into production be a form of publication? If a phone book is printed in invisible ink, it's still printed.
supergeek133 3y ago
I run a rather large API program for an Residential IoT manufacturer. We have multiple systems, some with a public API some not. The biggest problem is simply support. We'd LOVE to have more public ability to interact but I simply can't support every independent developer out there. Also, people agree to a legal terms of service to get access BUT don't always follow it (e.g., data storage agreements, use case agreements, etc). Coming at it from Mazda's POV, it could be that but it also could very well be the monetization aspect.
sebazzz 3y ago
Compare this to Tesla. https://developer.tesla.com/docs/fleet-api https://developer.tesla.com/docs/fleet-api
iamsaitam 3y ago
The judicial system is utterly broken when by using it, intimidation from a wealthier party is enough to achieve their wanted outcome. Perhaps we shouldn't allow people that have no (realistic) means to defend themselves from being sued. Of course this would be ridiculous and open up a myriad of abuses. OTOH what we have now is a tipped scale towards wealth, where justice loses its meaning.
razodactyl 3y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMVQ30c7TcA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMVQ30c7TcA

331 points by heshiebee 3y ago

[dead]

"Even if I believe that what I'm doing is morally correct and legally protected, legal processes still have a financial cost. I can't afford to take on that financial risk for something that I do in my spare time to help others." - this is very logical and exactly what I would have done but it still makes me very sad that this is the way the world works right now :(

pdonis 3y ago
This seems like a case where an organization like the EFF could help. Does anyone know if they are aware of this specific incident?
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  The EFF would still need a defendant to defend. It sounds like that person is not interested in pursuing a legal battle, so we have already met the end of this road.
  - happytoexplain 3y ago
    I see this attitude a lot where legal is involved (which is a lot of places). It's a very peculiar sort of "if this then that" which seems to subvert normal human communication. E.g. in this case, a standard human train of thought would be that, because one of the reasons given for not pursuing it is funding, the EFF might offer to fund this person, who, circumstances now being different, might then agree to be the defendant. Now maybe there is a problem with that, but my point is that your response seems to choose not to acknowledge it. I don't think it's malicious - I think there is just something about the way legal works that trains people to think and speak in this slightly non-human way.
    - thomastjeffery 3y ago
      In my perspective, it's less about the presentation, and more about the motivations involved. If the EFF is motivated to reach out to the original DMCA recipient, then they could definitely present this avenue. That leads us to the next question, is the original DMCA recipient interested in pursuing a (now funded) defense? If not, are they interested in handing it off to someone else? Who? Would that person be an effective defendant? Really, what we are doing here is speculating on one person's level of disinterest in pursuing the legal defense of their work.
      - tough 3y ago
        What about another person willing to continue with a fork? What about a DAO specifically built for that purpose exclusively? Just looking how to fuck back those lawyers
        thomastjeffery 3y ago
        I would love to see that happen. I also, unfortunately, doubt it will.
        tough 3y ago
        Seems it would require to fork the whole home assistant repo https://github.com/home-assistant/core/pull/101849#issuecomment-1761718315 https://github.com/home-assistant/core/pull/101849#issuecomm...
  - andix 3y ago
    They could transfer the ownership of the code to someone else. This person/entity could put it back up and wait for Mazda attacking them.
    - evan_ 3y ago
      Wouldn't Mazda then go after both parties?
      - thomastjeffery 3y ago
        The tool Mazda is using is DMCA. That applies explicitly to whomever is hosting the content. More specifically, it applies to whomever Mazda sends the DMCA notice to.
      - andix 3y ago
        Usually you can't go after people for creating content, even if it's a copyright violation. They also can't "uncreate" it, they can't delete the concepts from their brain. You can only stop them from publishing/selling it. In this case the code was on GitHub before, so they wouldn't even need to give the code to the new target entity, this entity could just copy it from an undisclosed person who has a copy.
    - oh_sigh 3y ago
      Transfer of ownership isn't even required, since it was open source code hosted on github. All someone needs to do is re-host the files, and wait for the DMCA notice to push back on it.
      - andix 3y ago
        True. It should also be possible to maintain it outside of the US, where the DMCA doesn't apply. In some European countries Mazda probably wouldn't have a lot of options to take it down.
  - pdonis 3y ago
    They could reach out to him and offer to pay his legal expenses. They could even offer the services of lawyers they are familiar with. IIRC they have done that in similar cases in the past.
Dalewyn 3y ago
As President Andrew Jackson once said, "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it." As it turns out, you need both the piece of paper underwriting your rights and the force necessary to exercise them.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  My freedom and financial future aren't the kinds of things I'd like to test their enforcement with. We need laws that prevent this type of bullying behavior.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    You're back to square one: You have to exercise the laws preventing that bullying. Lines of ink on plant fiber by themselves have never stopped anyone.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      So why don't you do this then? The author doesn't have to be the one to take the risk: YOU can do it yourself! Just get a copy of the code and post it up on your own account, under your own name.
all2 3y ago
The process is the punishment. Average Joe cannot go toe-to-toe in the legal system as it stands right now. The one with the most money nearly always wins, and - as in this case - the threat of financially ruinous litigation is enough.
- ronsor 3y ago
  And the solution is to nerf copyright into the dirt like you'd nerf an overpowered item in a game.
  - AceJohnny2 3y ago
    Are you aware that copyright law is the foundation of FOSS licenses?
    - jimnotgym 3y ago
      You wouldn't need it if copyright didn't exist in the first place
      - AceJohnny2 3y ago
        Of course you would. For example, thanks to copyright law, Linksys was forced to share their Linux customizations to run on router hardware, which led to the creation of the OpenWRT project. Without copyright law, any actor can take your open system and close it.
        Filligree 3y ago
        A lot of people are fine with that. Look at everyone who uses the BSD or MIT license.
        AceJohnny2 3y ago
        The fact that they have the option to choose it is different than it being the only possibility.
throw_a_grenade 3y ago
He should have added "I believe buying Mazda was a mistake and I encourage everyone to avoid this brand until they get their Legal together". They need to be deterred. They should know that every time they do this, people will start recommending their competition.
akira2501 3y ago
The DMCA has been a net negative for America. It didn't actually afford any of the intended protections to the industries that bought it and it has destroyed the concept of "ownership" in an increasingly digital world.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  And America didn’t just harm itself with DMCA. We all suffer from this mistake.
alphazard 3y ago
I think we've made a mistake by linking our real world identities to the software we write. If the author released this under a pseudonym, and hosted the git servers in a country without strong copyright enforcement, there's very little Mazda could do to take it down. It's too late for that now since Mazda knows who he really is.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  It's not too late for that; the author just doesn't want to be bothered. If he really wanted to, he could move the code to that other country, and put it up under a pseudonym. If anyone asks, he can just claim he doesn't know who that person is, and he has nothing to do with it: how can they disprove him without literally spying on him? The code is open-source: literally anyone could have made a fork of the repo while it was still up, and then posted it somewhere else.
  - alphazard 3y ago
    It's too late for that to be a realistic defense. The Mazda legal team already has a target that they can go after for any further developments with the source code. This post acknowledges that he received the cease and desist letter. The issue isn't just whether you win in court, it's also how much of your time and money is wasted fighting a corporate legal operation. Arguably, a random person publishing the source code would create additional problems for him. An effective defense has to protect your time and money. One such defense is to never let your real identity be plucked from obscurity and fixated on by a legal team.
prepend 3y ago
I wish GitHub would do more to protect developers from this bullshit. I know they aren’t required to, but I remember the olden days when more companies would fight dmca requests. But I suppose they were much less common then. The EFF might help, but even expecting individuals to appeal to the EFF is probably too much work and too much risk. I’d like to see GitHub partner with EFF to have first look at these requests and choose to fight ones that seem invalid. I’d donate to they cause.
- maxerickson 3y ago
  What's it look like? The next step to fight this is for the user of the Github service to file a counter notice and wait to see if Mazda files a copyright infringement lawsuit against them. It probably doesn't make sense for Github to indemnify them, and short of that, there's not really a lot of convincing they can do if someone isn't interested in engaging in litigation with some huge company.
  - prepend 3y ago
    They could auto file a counter notice. They could provide free legal council to help the user file. They could route to EFF or others to file counter notices. They could even sue for damages from false claims since API can’t be copyrighted. There’s tons they could do. Microsoft has immense resources and far greater than Mazda.
    - maxerickson 3y ago
      They don't have standing to auto file a counter notice. And then if someone accidentally publishes something copyrighted to github, they probably don't want to go through a lawsuit. I looked at the code some, there are some app secrets stored and used, so they probably have at least a thin claim.
      - prepend 3y ago
        They can certainly evaluate the request and deem it spurious, as long as they are willing to defend their decision. They can also autogenerate the counter claim so an author just needs to click “dispute.” I’m sure there are lots of valid dmca complaints against GitHub repos, like any site that allows hosting random files. But I think if GitHub wants to encourage programming, they need to invest and be more proactive in supporting programmers from people like the jerk lawyer at Mazda (or probably some stupid “ip protection” consultant) who filed this spurious seeming complaint.
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dtgriscom 3y ago
Right or wrong, the legal system (in the US and elsewhere) is to be feared and avoided. I've served jury duty several times in the US, and each time it looked like we might be empaneled, the defendant settled with the DA. I've no idea if they were actually guilty of what they were accused of, but in any case they decided that being deemed guilty was less onerous than going through (and paying for counsel in) a jury trial.
j1elo 3y ago
> this is very logical and exactly what I would have done I made a comment regarding this, before realizing yours, so I'm kinda repeating myself here, but it's something that piques my curiosity: What would stop you from just continuing in a different repo (even different host like Gitee), with a pseudonymous, and claim that you have no idea who's that mysterious person that forked and continued working on the project?

madrox 3y ago

I can only imagine Mazda's stake in this is that the OSS project is doing something that Mazda would like to monetize. Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? The worst thing to happen to home automation was companies trying to lock customers into their ecosystem without greater interoperability.

Dalewyn 3y ago
>Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? It could be argued Mazda doesn't want to be on the hook for end-user customizations that may potentially jeopardize safety. Now yes, if a driver modifies his car's code or the results of that code and causes an accident that's on him and not Mazda. But you and I and everyone here all know the media will jump at the chance to plaster sensational headlines for click monies.
- bobsmooth 3y ago
  If the API can do something to make the car unsafe that's on Mazda.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    If you void the warranty by touching the API, they've put it back on you.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Thanks for beautifully proving my point.
sliken 3y ago
Mazda is likely jealous of BMW for charging monthly for seat heaters, OSS tools to control the car threaten that.
- salzig 3y ago
  BMW doesn't anymore: https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-charging-for-warming-cheeks/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-c... Looks like the pain was big enough.

walterbell 3y ago

Cue TV commercial from Mazda competitors: Own The Road with shots of winding scenic roads, auto dashboard and tripped-out Home Assistant dashboard. Many manufacturers appear to be OK with especially resourceful owners optimizing their cars in this way. Home Assistant's integration library features at least six automakers, including BMW and Volvo, while Tesla recently published details of its new, official, open API for third-party developers to employ.

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

> Mazda has invested tremendous time and resources to develop confidential and proprietary information including computer code used by company. Recently certain Mazda Information, including proprietary API information, was used to create code and information posted to GitHub.com identified in repository of bdr99 ([private]). This repository contains code developed in python (https://github.com/bdr99/pymazda https://github.com/bdr99/pymazda) and javascript (https://github.com/bdr99/node-mymazda https://github.com/bdr99/node-mymazda), and appears to have been uploaded and used to create computer code associated with home-assistant.io and mobile applications. MNAO analyzed some of the code and determined that the code provides functionality same as what is currently in Apple App Store and Google Play App Store. We are requesting immediate removal of code from Github, brd99. Since when is an API call proprietary information? Can they even claim a DMCA against it? That's like claiming DMCA for telling someone how to flick a light switch.

deepsun 3y ago
And I believe Oracle vs. Google re. Java API ruled out that APIs cannot be copyrightable either.
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liquidpele 3y ago
It’s almost certainly not a legal takedown request, but this is always been an issue with the DMCA… it’s far too easy to make fraudulent requests, and there is almost never real punishment for them because they require financial harm, which is going to exclude anything except other companies.

gnabgib 3y ago

This has been discussed a couple of times: "Removal of Mazda Connected Services integration" (270 points, 78 comments, 10 days ago)[0], "Mazda's DMCA takedown kills a hobbyist's smart car API tool" (83 points, 27 comments, 6 days ago)[1] - the first being the original blog post on Home Assistant, the second referencing that blog post, maybe adding more content and this article referencing both sources (but adding little) [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37921584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37921584

blorenz 3y ago
Thank you for the links. I've been traveling recently and missed those previous discussions. I'm glad this one was in my purview as the topic at hand is near to me.

otikik 3y ago

I am now pissed that I have a Mazda. Mission accomplished, legal team, you undid all the efforts of the engineering and marketing departments in one single action.

hermitcrab 3y ago
I've had 2 Mazdas in the past. A bit less likely to buy another one now.
aksss 3y ago
Which is ironic for Mazda, because at least like model year 2019 and prior you could literally telnet into the CMU and do all sorts of hacks to it. Whether it was intentional or not, Mazda has enjoyed a bit of a sheen of being kinda hack/maker friendly if you play in that space. https://mazdatweaks.com/serial/ https://mazdatweaks.com/serial/
- wuuza 3y ago
  They didn't intend it, but they should have since they'd probably end up with a better end-user experience ala Rockbox/LineageOS. The community added some cool features and worked around some glaring bugs until Mazda clamped down by specifically nuking the mods on updates. God forbid anyone embarrass them by making their crappy software better, like pausing a stream when "Mute" was hit instead of letting the stream run while muted. How about this? If you used a USB stick full of music it showed the files in FAT order, not sorted by filename or ID3 tags. It would also just randomly forget the resume point, and revert to playing the "first" file on the disk. So instead of Amon Amarth blasting my ears in this case, I had to both create a file named "0000Silence.mp3", and run a special command after every disk update to rewrite the FAT so the FAT order equaled alphabetical order.
  - daleswanson 3y ago
    > It would also just randomly forget the resume point, and revert to playing the "first" file on the disk. Is there any hack that fixes this? It's my number 1 annoyance with my Mazda.

Tabular-Iceberg 3y ago

DMCA? Does Mazda think we're going to start downloading cars because of this?

steve_adams_86 3y ago
I mean, we wouldn’t do that, would we?
sobkas 3y ago
> DMCA? Does Mazda think we're going to start downloading cars because of this? Or do something even worse, have functionality we didn't paid Mazda to have.

daft_pink 3y ago

I would never purchase a Mazda after this.

a2xd94 3y ago

Hey loyal Mazda fan, That money you could be making, yeah we don't like you getting it instead of us, so cough it up! Also, while we're at it, cool idea...thanks for the work! Here's nice thankful lawsuit for your hard work. We'll go ahead and privately fork that repo and totally not rip your functionality off and somehow manage to mess it up while overcharging for it! :) Worst regards, thx for the moneys and screw you, Mazda

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xbar 3y ago

The marketplace for autos is still broad enough for me to purchase a car that meets my needs. No Mazda does.

givemeethekeys 3y ago
Not anymore, thats for sure.

mirkules 3y ago

I've worked for a large OEM, dealing with a large Japanese megacorp that is not Mazda for about two years (actually Mazda was one of our customers too, but I didn't get to work with them directly). This does not amaze me anymore. We spent months agonizing over an interior temperature sensor, which was only used to display the information to the user on a smartphone app. We built both the hardware and software, and it was offered as an add-on at the dealerships. After months of negotiations, after the hardware was already built and the packages assembles, they decided temperature sensors were too inaccurate (+/- 5 degrees F) to use, and that it could present a legal liability. Again, this was nothing else but displaying the information on the app - and the user could then make a decision whether to remote start the car to cool it or heat it (no automatic process took place either). This was at the height of "unintended accelerator" issue in Toyotas, so everyone was walking on egg shells playing it ultra safe to not invite any more lawsuits. What surprises me is that this culture of "playing it safe" remained to this day, some 10 years later (but maybe it shouldn't).

hirundo 3y ago
My cheap home thermostat has that frustrating +/- 5 degrees F accuracy. Is it very difficult to build an inexpensive 1 degree sensor?
- harrisonjackson 3y ago
  I am curious what an "expensive" one would actually cost, too... It is a car so already a large purchase. I'd pay a bit more for an accurate thermostat.
  - mirkules 3y ago
    It's not just material cost, probably different interface to the sensor so factor in some R&D, approvals, etc. Any time anything, no matter how small or innocuous (bracket, cable, screw, some piece of plastic cover, etc), was changed on a vehicle, it meant a different part number, which meant 6-12 months delay. This is because it has to go through all the testing - usability, fatigue, safety, etc all over again. This is why they pick cheap parts - not because they're cheap, but because they are old and got cheaper over the years, because old = already approved, which makes the lead time a lot less.

teeray 3y ago

Hopefully this triggers a Streisand Effect of this code appearing everywhere. Something like “this JPG is also a git repo”

hanszarkov 3y ago

I'm one engineer that won't be buying a Mazda

lfmunoz4 3y ago

Things like this just make me think, if you write code and aren't making money no point in hosting it in US. I.e, just put it on Gitee

activescott 3y ago

I just happen to read about DMCA exemptions legalities recently (which I submitted at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37961007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37961007). Turns out that exemptions to DMCA are recommended every three years. I noticed one especially relevant to this one under the section category of "Proposed New or Expanded Exemptions": > Proposed Class 7: Computer Programs— Vehicle Operational Data > MEMA petitions for a new exemption to ‘‘access, store, and share vehicle operational data, including diagnostic and telematics data’’ from ‘‘a lawfully acquired motorized land vehicle or marine vessel such as a personal automobile or boat, commercial vehicle or vessel, or mechanized agricultural vehicle or vessel.’’ 182 The petition limits circumvention to ‘‘lawful vehicle owners and lessees, or those acting on their behalf.’’ > The Office encourages proponents to develop the legal and factual administrative record in their initial submissions, including describing with specificity the relevant TPMs and whether their presence is adversely affecting noninfringing uses, whether eligible users may access such data through alternate channels that do not require circumvention, and the legal basis for concluding that the proposed uses are likely to be noninfringing. In general, the Office seeks comment on whether the proposed exemption should be adopted, including any proposed regulatory language. - From Page 14, of October 19, 2023 – Notice of Proposed Rulemaking at https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2023-10-19/pdf/2023-22949.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2023-10-19/pdf/2023-2... The US Copyright Office goes on to say *they want feedback on this potential exemption*: > The Office encourages proponents to develop the legal and factual administrative record in their initial submissions, including describing with specificity the relevant TPMs and whether their presence is adversely affecting noninfringing uses, whether eligible users may access such data through alternate channels that do not require circumvention, and the legal basis for concluding that the proposed uses are likely to be noninfringing. In general, the Office seeks comment on whether the proposed exemption should be adopted, including any proposed regulatory language. Note that final sentence!

tommek4077 3y ago

Just dont put your name on projects like this. Had to learn myself the hard way 15 years ago. Just do it, fly under the radar, stay pseudonymous, go the hacker way.

m4jor 3y ago
Can't stop the signal!
asynchronous 3y ago
You’re right but I’m sad that that is the world we live in.

j1elo 3y ago

How can they really stop this development? I mean, if I were the author, had put my effort and time into solving my own itch and released it as FOSS, only to receive a Cease and Desist, my itch would still probably be there, but GitHub would probably comply and close the repo. So I'd just cease, desist, and my project would suddenly appear again in some other Git server. Surely, without my name on it, and hosted from whatever country seeming less likely to follow up on similar requests.

lovemenot 3y ago

I suspect this decision would have been almost a no-brainer for Mazda execs in Japan. Japanese culture tends to white-list permitted activities. The API was designed for a purpose other than what this developer used it for. Therefore his code is proscribed.

jms703 3y ago

I'm in the market for a new car and I'm deciding between Mazda, Acura, and Toyota. I'm quite curious to see how these other manufacturers are treating developers.

izacus 3y ago
Even worse. I mean... What developers? Did you see any?

quantum_state 3y ago

The car maker can void some warranty but it has no right to do what it did. The car is the property of its owner who can do whatever with it.

senorrib 3y ago

Man, this enrages me so much. But I'm glad I live in a third world country where access to legal defense is relatively cheap. Here I would just tell them to piss off and get on with my life.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> It's unclear what legal basis Mazda has to order a DMCA takedown There's probably none. They're probably just leveraging the high costs of a legal defense to bully individuals into submission. Corporations have armies of lawyers and can afford to spend years fighting in court, this guy can't. The threat of lawsuits is equivalent to a threat to set his money on fire. Check out their "justifications": > The automaker argued that Rothweiler's work contained code that violated its copyrights; used its "proprietary API information" to create more code Seriously doubt that. It's not like they gave this guy access to their source code or internal documents. > and that the integrations provided functionality identical to what currently exists in Mazda's own mobile apps Not protected by copyright.

kazinator 3y ago

> GitHub (where the software was hosted) I.e. actually GitHub took the stuff down, not Mazda. Self-host your shit for Pete's sake.

not_your_mentat 3y ago

Wasn't the "prioritary API" but resolved in Oracle vs Google? I was under the impression that an API is like a phone book and a you cannot copyright a collection of phone numbers. How is the API claim legally defensible?

vimax 3y ago
I had that thought too, but that case involved Google reimplementing a published API. This case is about using an unpublished API.
- not_your_mentat 3y ago
  Wouldn't putting it into production be a form of publication? If a phone book is printed in invisible ink, it's still printed.

supergeek133 3y ago

I run a rather large API program for an Residential IoT manufacturer. We have multiple systems, some with a public API some not. The biggest problem is simply support. We'd LOVE to have more public ability to interact but I simply can't support every independent developer out there. Also, people agree to a legal terms of service to get access BUT don't always follow it (e.g., data storage agreements, use case agreements, etc). Coming at it from Mazda's POV, it could be that but it also could very well be the monetization aspect.

sebazzz 3y ago

Compare this to Tesla. https://developer.tesla.com/docs/fleet-api https://developer.tesla.com/docs/fleet-api

iamsaitam 3y ago

The judicial system is utterly broken when by using it, intimidation from a wealthier party is enough to achieve their wanted outcome. Perhaps we shouldn't allow people that have no (realistic) means to defend themselves from being sued. Of course this would be ridiculous and open up a myriad of abuses. OTOH what we have now is a tipped scale towards wealth, where justice loses its meaning.

razodactyl 3y ago

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMVQ30c7TcA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMVQ30c7TcA