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You are wrong. First, a ceasefire help Palestinian and Israeli civilians, so your first paragraph is wrong. Your second paragraph is wrong too. Palestinian in

by orwin 3y ago

You are wrong. First, a ceasefire help Palestinian and Israeli civilians, so your first paragraph is wrong. Your second paragraph is wrong too. Palestinian in the west bank are represented by the Fatah, which is a secular organization. Hence Hamas do not represent Palestinians. I'll add something else: Hamas only survived in Gaza thanks to the monthly 30M$ send by Qatar there: those dollars arrived by plane in Israel, where the Israeli army was waiting, then escorted (still by the army) toward Gaza, sent sent to an entry that was solely controlled by Hamas, ensuring their control upon food importation on one hand, and upon other political/paramilitary groups on the other. This is linked to your third paragraph: UNRWA is seriously limited and cannot afford to give much more than schooling and food to children in Gaza. They would have done a much better job of securing peace than the Hamas with the monthly 30M given by Qataris. Who insisted that that money kept flowing into Hamas hands? [0]. I do not know why you attack UNRWA but the sister who called my grandparents to adopt my father worked with them, (the catholic hospital/school/orphanage she worked in before their expropriation was founded by this initiative) and I can't imagine her fueling any hatred: even when forcibly moved from the area she worked in for 40 years she said it was God's will and that she would do a much better work in her new place (at almost 80 yo) Israelis civilians and Israel as a country has nothing to be blamed for, I agree with paragraph 4 and 5. But Netanyahu's government and his politic does. The 16 year blockade limited any influence work and humanitarian aid (its also why UNRWA critics specifically targeting the situation in Gaza to explain why it half-failed are at best fucking disingenuous, and i'm really nice). The decision to push the Hamas as a PLO alternative to limit Fatah increasing power in the Palestinian coalition was really short-sighted at first, but the continuous effort to keep that status quo by Netanyahu's government, including indirect funding of Hamas was criminal and probably the original sin of that pogrom (which do not absolve Hamas war criminals/terrorist of the majority of the blame). Last paragraph: not sure why you conflate Gaza with Palestine. If it's on purpose, I agree that one solution would be to separate Gaza from Palestine (like Bengladesh from Pakistan) and going back to the original borders. What really grind my gears is the western photo-open with Netanyahu. This is ridiculous. It would be like if all leaders went to General What's-his-name in Libya to take pictures with him after the dam failure that killed thousands of his citizens. It's pathetic, really. I'm zionist BTW, I am for 'l'autodétermination des peuples', for everybody, and I did use to have a Haaretz subscription when I was younger, those are my 2 main bias in this conflict. [0]https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-israel-mossad-chief-doha-qatar-continue-hamas-gaza-money-transfer/0000017f-ded8-d856-a37f-ffd88a960000 https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-artic...

crabbone 3y ago
> First, a ceasefire help Palestinian and Israeli civilians, so your first paragraph is wrong. In the short term it helps Palestinian civilians. But Hamas doesn't care about ceasefire. never did. They've broken numerous previous such agreements. So, the only possible ceasefire is the one-sided, where Israel stops shooting at Palestinians. If they do that, more Israelis will die. They obviously care about Israelis more than they care about Palestinians. > Your second paragraph is wrong too. Palestinian in the west bank are represented by the Fatah, which is a secular organization. Religion plays no role in this dispute. Fatah are as much terrorists as Hamas is. It's just at this point in time it's convenient to pretend that they aren't. Plenty of Fatah members are doing time in Israeli prisons for killing or attempting to kill Israeli citizens. How did you come to a conclusion from what you wrote that Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians I don't have a clue. Hamas and Fatah don't differ on their position on "kill all Jews" question. They might not represent all Palestinians literally, but they are quite representative of the sentiment "on Palestinian street". They aren't some sort of a foreign plant nobody agrees with. They enjoy great support and love from their loyal subjects. > UNRWA What they do with schools is irrelevant. You simply don't have a clue what this is about. UNRWA was established to give eternal, hereditary refugee status to Arabs who attempted pogroms at the start of the independence war of 48, and then fled fearing retribution. This is what they refer to by the "right to return". The idea here is that children, or grand children, or grand-grand-grand...children of these people have a right to return to places like Yaffo and reclaim their properties. No other refugee in the world enjoys anything like this. Refugee status expires after some time. Maybe ten or so years. This is reasonable because such status puts its owner in a limbo of not being a citizen of any country. Should your refugee status expire, the country where you live must do something about it. Either grant you citizenship, or kick you out. UNRWA put these refugees into eternal Purgatory of being stateless. They are told by the UN "one day you'll go back to live in Tel Aviv". And Israel tells them "go jump off a cliff, I need no antisemite terrorist living in the middle of the largest city in my country". So, as long as Israel stands, they aren't coming back. No two- or three- or however many state solution isn't going to alter anything about their situation. They are screwed, by UN. UN could alter their decision to request monetary compensation for example. Israel would be very happy to comply. And whatever country that accepted these refugees would get a nice chunk of money to go with them. Yet UN is determined to keep this torture going because they are stubborn and stupid on one side, and on the other side all sorts of "human rights committees" have been hijacked by members with an axe to grind against Israel. And these refugees are a chip in this game. > Last paragraph: not sure why you conflate Gaza with Palestine. Dude. You obviously don't live there. Have never been there. Don't understand the language or the history of the place. I've spent 25 years of my life in this place. Palestine is not a thing. There's no agreement on what it is. But one thing I can tell you for sure, if anything is Palestine, Gaza is definitely there.

by orwin 3y ago

crabbone 3y ago

> First, a ceasefire help Palestinian and Israeli civilians, so your first paragraph is wrong. In the short term it helps Palestinian civilians. But Hamas doesn't care about ceasefire. never did. They've broken numerous previous such agreements. So, the only possible ceasefire is the one-sided, where Israel stops shooting at Palestinians. If they do that, more Israelis will die. They obviously care about Israelis more than they care about Palestinians. > Your second paragraph is wrong too. Palestinian in the west bank are represented by the Fatah, which is a secular organization. Religion plays no role in this dispute. Fatah are as much terrorists as Hamas is. It's just at this point in time it's convenient to pretend that they aren't. Plenty of Fatah members are doing time in Israeli prisons for killing or attempting to kill Israeli citizens. How did you come to a conclusion from what you wrote that Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians I don't have a clue. Hamas and Fatah don't differ on their position on "kill all Jews" question. They might not represent all Palestinians literally, but they are quite representative of the sentiment "on Palestinian street". They aren't some sort of a foreign plant nobody agrees with. They enjoy great support and love from their loyal subjects. > UNRWA What they do with schools is irrelevant. You simply don't have a clue what this is about. UNRWA was established to give eternal, hereditary refugee status to Arabs who attempted pogroms at the start of the independence war of 48, and then fled fearing retribution. This is what they refer to by the "right to return". The idea here is that children, or grand children, or grand-grand-grand...children of these people have a right to return to places like Yaffo and reclaim their properties. No other refugee in the world enjoys anything like this. Refugee status expires after some time. Maybe ten or so years. This is reasonable because such status puts its owner in a limbo of not being a citizen of any country. Should your refugee status expire, the country where you live must do something about it. Either grant you citizenship, or kick you out. UNRWA put these refugees into eternal Purgatory of being stateless. They are told by the UN "one day you'll go back to live in Tel Aviv". And Israel tells them "go jump off a cliff, I need no antisemite terrorist living in the middle of the largest city in my country". So, as long as Israel stands, they aren't coming back. No two- or three- or however many state solution isn't going to alter anything about their situation. They are screwed, by UN. UN could alter their decision to request monetary compensation for example. Israel would be very happy to comply. And whatever country that accepted these refugees would get a nice chunk of money to go with them. Yet UN is determined to keep this torture going because they are stubborn and stupid on one side, and on the other side all sorts of "human rights committees" have been hijacked by members with an axe to grind against Israel. And these refugees are a chip in this game. > Last paragraph: not sure why you conflate Gaza with Palestine. Dude. You obviously don't live there. Have never been there. Don't understand the language or the history of the place. I've spent 25 years of my life in this place. Palestine is not a thing. There's no agreement on what it is. But one thing I can tell you for sure, if anything is Palestine, Gaza is definitely there.