6 ms·

It is interesting that with how much the phrase toxic masculinity is thrown around, that children with both parents, especially those with fathers, do better th

It is interesting that with how much the phrase toxic masculinity is thrown around, that children with both parents, especially those with fathers, do better than those without. Masculinity was so toxic than children raised without fathers should be better.

clipsy 3y ago
"Toxic masculinity" does not mean "all masculinity is toxic."
SonOfKyuss 3y ago
The dads that stick around and help raise their kids aren’t the ones that are toxic. It’s the ones who don’t, which as the article points out, is a growing number.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I think we need a lot more context before judging a person's actions with their children.
  - irrational 3y ago
    This is about statistics rather than a case by case basis, isn’t it?
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Do you have statistics to support that fathers leave due to "toxic masculinity"? Only statistics I'm aware of is that divorce rates are up and the #1 divorce rate are due to financial issues.regardless, "someone who X is Y" is not a statistic, it's a stereotype (which may or may not have statistical support). I don't know of much literature that looks into single mother's and why they are single.
      - randomdata 3y ago
        > #1 divorce rate are due to financial issues Stands to reason. For what other purpose would you get divorced? When it comes to social division you can simply part ways. The only reason you would initiate divorce is to get help sorting out the financial aspects of the relationship.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I believe #2 is infidelity. Looking it up: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-divorce/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-d... I was slightly incorrect. Financial reasons was the #1 reason to get married. Apparently the #1 reason for divorce was "lack of family support". Which I suppose can still come down to financial issues in some way. Though, it does seem to shift depending on the stage of marriage. First year divorces happen mostly due to incompatibility, whereas long term (8+ years) happens due to infidelity.
        randomdata 3y ago
        It seems that is actually focused on the relationship breakdown and conflating it with divorce. Like, if infidelity lead you to never want to look at the other person again, you could just carry out the rest of your life pretending they don't exist. You don't need to go to the lengths of divorce for that division. But if you want to sort out the financial separation of the relationship and cannot reach agreeable terms without an intermediary, then divorce may become necessary.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        It has many different breakdowns, including why they marry, why they break up, and what they feel could have saved the relationship. It's more comprehensive than just divorce. >Like, if infidelity lead you to never want to look at the other person again, you could just carry out the rest of your life pretending they don't exist. Sure, not all infidelity leads to divorce, some stay together for the kids, others forgive or drop it, others "get even" and then forgive/drop it. Infidelity also isn't illegal and open relationships are a thing, so you can indeed remain legally married and proceed to date aroind as if you are single. But general societal pressure dictate that if you want to properly separate you divorce. Which is probably why the top two reason come from not being a good partner (i.e. Being unable or unwilling to take care of the family or not being faithful). Polygamy is also a problem: because while there's no real punishment for it in society for engaging in polygamy, you are legally not allowed to have multiple spouses. If you ever imagine re-marrying you want to get that divorce over with ASAP. And the process can take a while.
healsdata 3y ago
You seem to misunderstand how the adjective "toxic" is functioning in that phrase. Toxic masculinity describes a particular type of masculinity in the same way that "electric car" describes a type, or subset, of cars. Not all cars are electric just like not all masculinity is toxic. Hope that helps!
- klipt 3y ago
  Sounds like a dog whistle to me. If someone talked constantly about, say, "toxic women", would you really believe they were only talking about a subset?
  - irrational 3y ago
    Well, people do talk about Karens, shrews, bitches, etc. which all seem to be different kinds of toxic women. Maybe there are just more named subsets for toxic women than for men?
    - anon291 3y ago
      There are academic articles on karens, shrews and bitches? You're claiming that the worst used in 4chan, reddit, and popular magazines carry the same societal weight as academic articles in policy and sociology journals. They don't.
    - klipt 3y ago
      ...isn't using the word "bitches" widely considered a dog whistle for hating all women? Seems like you're agreeing with me.
- Jensson 3y ago
  They really should change phrases like this that causes a lot of confusion and misunderstandings before changing stuff like "whitelist".
- dryanau 3y ago
  I doubt there's any confusion. The purported meaning of the phrase is clear. But its usage in practice is often (but not always) quite punishing toward masculinity in general.
DonaldTruck 3y ago
It's also interesting how little discussion there is about "toxic femininity". I dislike both, to be clear, but if we're going to tackle the harm caused by men being violent, cold, disloyal, absent, etc then we also have to be frank about the role of women in the creation of broken homes by selecting such awful husbands and fathers.
- stOneskull 3y ago
  anything toxic really. it is interesting which toxins are focused on though.
- thealchemistdev 3y ago
  Talk is cheap. Just let the results of your actions in the response to the zeitgeist speak for itself.

clipsy 3y ago

"Toxic masculinity" does not mean "all masculinity is toxic."

SonOfKyuss 3y ago

The dads that stick around and help raise their kids aren’t the ones that are toxic. It’s the ones who don’t, which as the article points out, is a growing number.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
I think we need a lot more context before judging a person's actions with their children.
- irrational 3y ago
  This is about statistics rather than a case by case basis, isn’t it?
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    Do you have statistics to support that fathers leave due to "toxic masculinity"? Only statistics I'm aware of is that divorce rates are up and the #1 divorce rate are due to financial issues.regardless, "someone who X is Y" is not a statistic, it's a stereotype (which may or may not have statistical support). I don't know of much literature that looks into single mother's and why they are single.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      > #1 divorce rate are due to financial issues Stands to reason. For what other purpose would you get divorced? When it comes to social division you can simply part ways. The only reason you would initiate divorce is to get help sorting out the financial aspects of the relationship.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I believe #2 is infidelity. Looking it up: https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-divorce/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/common-causes-d... I was slightly incorrect. Financial reasons was the #1 reason to get married. Apparently the #1 reason for divorce was "lack of family support". Which I suppose can still come down to financial issues in some way. Though, it does seem to shift depending on the stage of marriage. First year divorces happen mostly due to incompatibility, whereas long term (8+ years) happens due to infidelity.
        randomdata 3y ago
        It seems that is actually focused on the relationship breakdown and conflating it with divorce. Like, if infidelity lead you to never want to look at the other person again, you could just carry out the rest of your life pretending they don't exist. You don't need to go to the lengths of divorce for that division. But if you want to sort out the financial separation of the relationship and cannot reach agreeable terms without an intermediary, then divorce may become necessary.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        It has many different breakdowns, including why they marry, why they break up, and what they feel could have saved the relationship. It's more comprehensive than just divorce. >Like, if infidelity lead you to never want to look at the other person again, you could just carry out the rest of your life pretending they don't exist. Sure, not all infidelity leads to divorce, some stay together for the kids, others forgive or drop it, others "get even" and then forgive/drop it. Infidelity also isn't illegal and open relationships are a thing, so you can indeed remain legally married and proceed to date aroind as if you are single. But general societal pressure dictate that if you want to properly separate you divorce. Which is probably why the top two reason come from not being a good partner (i.e. Being unable or unwilling to take care of the family or not being faithful). Polygamy is also a problem: because while there's no real punishment for it in society for engaging in polygamy, you are legally not allowed to have multiple spouses. If you ever imagine re-marrying you want to get that divorce over with ASAP. And the process can take a while.

healsdata 3y ago

You seem to misunderstand how the adjective "toxic" is functioning in that phrase. Toxic masculinity describes a particular type of masculinity in the same way that "electric car" describes a type, or subset, of cars. Not all cars are electric just like not all masculinity is toxic. Hope that helps!

klipt 3y ago
Sounds like a dog whistle to me. If someone talked constantly about, say, "toxic women", would you really believe they were only talking about a subset?
- irrational 3y ago
  Well, people do talk about Karens, shrews, bitches, etc. which all seem to be different kinds of toxic women. Maybe there are just more named subsets for toxic women than for men?
  - anon291 3y ago
    There are academic articles on karens, shrews and bitches? You're claiming that the worst used in 4chan, reddit, and popular magazines carry the same societal weight as academic articles in policy and sociology journals. They don't.
  - klipt 3y ago
    ...isn't using the word "bitches" widely considered a dog whistle for hating all women? Seems like you're agreeing with me.
Jensson 3y ago
They really should change phrases like this that causes a lot of confusion and misunderstandings before changing stuff like "whitelist".
dryanau 3y ago
I doubt there's any confusion. The purported meaning of the phrase is clear. But its usage in practice is often (but not always) quite punishing toward masculinity in general.

DonaldTruck 3y ago

It's also interesting how little discussion there is about "toxic femininity". I dislike both, to be clear, but if we're going to tackle the harm caused by men being violent, cold, disloyal, absent, etc then we also have to be frank about the role of women in the creation of broken homes by selecting such awful husbands and fathers.

stOneskull 3y ago
anything toxic really. it is interesting which toxins are focused on though.
thealchemistdev 3y ago
Talk is cheap. Just let the results of your actions in the response to the zeitgeist speak for itself.