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I haven't watched this video yet but I'm looking forward to it, having read Showstopper[1] quite a few years back. One thing that stuck out to me when I was st

I haven't watched this video yet but I'm looking forward to it, having read Showstopper[1] quite a few years back. One thing that stuck out to me when I was still in my early 20s thinking I needed to work all the time was the mention that Dave would always take holidays on time, every time without any debate. While I may not love Microsoft, it was probably my first real exposure of a highly competent and qualified person who wasn't grinding 24/7. It still feels nuts to write it but it's a holdover from rural (and retail) life where the mindset is basically "The more you suffer, the more virtuous you are". As much as I still struggle to properly take time off (that is, it's easy to postpone because of X or Y being more important), thinking about Dave's view is always a good reminder that it's not a choice between taking a break and being good at X. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Show-Stopper-Breakneck-Generation-Microsoft/dp/0029356717 https://www.amazon.com/Show-Stopper-Breakneck-Generation-Mic...

fatherzine 3y ago
I wish I would have more spiritual and material insights onto how the 24/7 grind mindset became widespread in USA, possibly via Calvinism and the Protestant work ethic. The foundations do prescribe regular perusal of relief valves. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=NKJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&ver...
- mmastrac 3y ago
  24/6 grind kinda sucks though. We need three point five Sabbath days really.
  - fatherzine 3y ago
    Pure personal anecdote, a couple years back I did explicitly choose to observe 'zero work Sundays', either office or domestic. Rejecting the oft self-induced guilt for daring to catch my breath 1/7 made a measurable dent in improving QoL. While YMMV, give it a try. Usually stuff can wait a day.
    - yoyohello13 3y ago
      I have noticed this too. Often people spend the weekend doing housework, personal projects or other chores so it doesn’t really feel much like a rest day. I don’t always have the chance, but truly doing no work one day a week is very refreshing.
  - Phileosopher 3y ago
    A huge part of this is tied to the "conscientiousness" aspect of the Big 5 personality. For myself, I need 1.5-2 days of off-time, depending what I'm working on. I consider myself a constant grindstone-lover, and most of the people I work around seem to reflect your 3.5 number, but I've seen some people who probably need 5 days off a week. No shame in any of it, though. Everyone's wired differently. The USA has a unique taboo about "enjoying life", and I blame its post-WWII militarized culture for the most of it.
- thinkerswell 3y ago
  But the puritans would also recognize the value of rest, along with the folly of overworking for riches.
joshspankit 3y ago
And really, it primarily benefits business owners who live by a different motto (making money work for you). Each employee who “puts the nose to the grindstone”/“puts their back in to it” generates more profit for the company but doesn’t need to be paid more. Then when their health deteriorates enough that they can’t do the work they can be replaced. Apologies for the roughness of this late-night reply. I feel like people here know this intuitively already anyway.
kccqzy 3y ago
I read the same book you did. How is it that I got the impression from the book that most people (Microsofties) actually did overtime voluntarily? I mean Microsoft didn't have to pay overtime because the employees all thought they were sufficiently compensated by the stock price going up!
JohnFen 3y ago
> it was probably my first real exposure of a highly competent and qualified person who wasn't grinding 24/7. Over the years, I've noticed that most (although certainly not all) highly experience and skilled devs are rigorous and unapologetic about taking time off. I didn't take the clue for a long time, though. Then I burned out. Now, I recognize that taking time off and sticking to 8 hour workdays (except in actual emergency situations) is a professional responsibility as well as a personal one, because it helps to reduce the risk of burnout, and burnout is bad for literally everybody.

fatherzine 3y ago

I wish I would have more spiritual and material insights onto how the 24/7 grind mindset became widespread in USA, possibly via Calvinism and the Protestant work ethic. The foundations do prescribe regular perusal of relief valves. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&version=NKJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020&ver...

mmastrac 3y ago
24/6 grind kinda sucks though. We need three point five Sabbath days really.
- fatherzine 3y ago
  Pure personal anecdote, a couple years back I did explicitly choose to observe 'zero work Sundays', either office or domestic. Rejecting the oft self-induced guilt for daring to catch my breath 1/7 made a measurable dent in improving QoL. While YMMV, give it a try. Usually stuff can wait a day.
  - yoyohello13 3y ago
    I have noticed this too. Often people spend the weekend doing housework, personal projects or other chores so it doesn’t really feel much like a rest day. I don’t always have the chance, but truly doing no work one day a week is very refreshing.
- Phileosopher 3y ago
  A huge part of this is tied to the "conscientiousness" aspect of the Big 5 personality. For myself, I need 1.5-2 days of off-time, depending what I'm working on. I consider myself a constant grindstone-lover, and most of the people I work around seem to reflect your 3.5 number, but I've seen some people who probably need 5 days off a week. No shame in any of it, though. Everyone's wired differently. The USA has a unique taboo about "enjoying life", and I blame its post-WWII militarized culture for the most of it.
thinkerswell 3y ago
But the puritans would also recognize the value of rest, along with the folly of overworking for riches.

joshspankit 3y ago

And really, it primarily benefits business owners who live by a different motto (making money work for you). Each employee who “puts the nose to the grindstone”/“puts their back in to it” generates more profit for the company but doesn’t need to be paid more. Then when their health deteriorates enough that they can’t do the work they can be replaced. Apologies for the roughness of this late-night reply. I feel like people here know this intuitively already anyway.

kccqzy 3y ago

I read the same book you did. How is it that I got the impression from the book that most people (Microsofties) actually did overtime voluntarily? I mean Microsoft didn't have to pay overtime because the employees all thought they were sufficiently compensated by the stock price going up!

JohnFen 3y ago

> it was probably my first real exposure of a highly competent and qualified person who wasn't grinding 24/7. Over the years, I've noticed that most (although certainly not all) highly experience and skilled devs are rigorous and unapologetic about taking time off. I didn't take the clue for a long time, though. Then I burned out. Now, I recognize that taking time off and sticking to 8 hour workdays (except in actual emergency situations) is a professional responsibility as well as a personal one, because it helps to reduce the risk of burnout, and burnout is bad for literally everybody.