4 ms·

It was notables and nobles clothing, so 10%? plus military. Plus all the textile workers where tint was available, so I guess quite a lot.

by orwin 3y ago

Jensson 3y ago
You think 10% of people were notable or nobles?
- orwin 3y ago
  Yes, and I think I'm lowballing it. Notables include the mercantile bourgeoisie, the administration, the mercenaries, the guard, the local bourgeoisie (guild leaders, lawyers), and the 'small bourgeoisie' in the sense people who owned either specific, important equipment, or important skills outside cities, so not in a guild (horse breeders, miller etc). Nobility is like .5% to 2% depending on your country, the rest, depending on when and where you're talking about post-renaissance can easely get to 10%, maybe even 15% in the lowlands. People think the industrial revolution started with coal an trains, but check Europeans canals and waterworks, as well as how precise steel parts were made. The major productivity increases are from before the US revolution. In fact, I'm certain that one of the French revolution trigger was notables who saw those productivity increase improve their life, then being taken away to found wars or whatever.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    Uniforms doesn't count, you don't choose your uniform. That rules out most of the groups you listed.
    - orwin 3y ago
      I'm talking about people wealthy enough to wear tinted linen/cotton and fitted pants/stocking. I do not care if they wore a uniform during their work hours.
dudul 3y ago
10% of the population was notables and nobles?? I'm gonna need to see some links/data here.
- PeterisP 3y ago
  To put some numbers to it, if we look at pre-revolution France then nobles constitute <0.5% (120k out of 28 million as of 1780, source https://www.thoughtco.com/french-revolution-pre-revolutionary-france-1221877 https://www.thoughtco.com/french-revolution-pre-revolutionar...) of population, the 'first estate' i.e. clergy another 0.4-0.5%, the bourgeoisie (which would match the professions that we'd consider "middle class" nowadays") would grow from 3% to 7% over 18th century, and 90%+ people would be in the lower class. In essence, if we want some sweeping generalizations and be generous, then assuming 1%/9%/90% for upper/middle/lower class is roughly in the ballpark for most societies until the 20th century. So while the noble families are nowhere near 10%, it's not entirely wrong to assert that the top 10% including all the non-noble bourgeoisie, the merchants, doctors, lawyers, officers, etc, would have the means and desire to care about fashion.
- gwenzek 3y ago
  Graphic 5.2 in http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2019GraphiquesTableaux.pdf http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2019GraphiquesTableau... In France it was down to less than 1% at the time of Revolution, but some countries like Spain that had centuries long wars, was closer to 6-8% range.

It was notables and nobles clothing, so 10%? plus military. Plus all the textile workers where tint was available, so I guess quite a lot.

by orwin 3y ago

It was notables and nobles clothing, so 10%? plus military. Plus all the textile workers where tint was available, so I guess quite a lot.

Jensson 3y ago

You think 10% of people were notable or nobles?

orwin 3y ago
Yes, and I think I'm lowballing it. Notables include the mercantile bourgeoisie, the administration, the mercenaries, the guard, the local bourgeoisie (guild leaders, lawyers), and the 'small bourgeoisie' in the sense people who owned either specific, important equipment, or important skills outside cities, so not in a guild (horse breeders, miller etc). Nobility is like .5% to 2% depending on your country, the rest, depending on when and where you're talking about post-renaissance can easely get to 10%, maybe even 15% in the lowlands. People think the industrial revolution started with coal an trains, but check Europeans canals and waterworks, as well as how precise steel parts were made. The major productivity increases are from before the US revolution. In fact, I'm certain that one of the French revolution trigger was notables who saw those productivity increase improve their life, then being taken away to found wars or whatever.
- Jensson 3y ago
  Uniforms doesn't count, you don't choose your uniform. That rules out most of the groups you listed.
  - orwin 3y ago
    I'm talking about people wealthy enough to wear tinted linen/cotton and fitted pants/stocking. I do not care if they wore a uniform during their work hours.

dudul 3y ago

10% of the population was notables and nobles?? I'm gonna need to see some links/data here.

PeterisP 3y ago
To put some numbers to it, if we look at pre-revolution France then nobles constitute <0.5% (120k out of 28 million as of 1780, source https://www.thoughtco.com/french-revolution-pre-revolutionary-france-1221877 https://www.thoughtco.com/french-revolution-pre-revolutionar...) of population, the 'first estate' i.e. clergy another 0.4-0.5%, the bourgeoisie (which would match the professions that we'd consider "middle class" nowadays") would grow from 3% to 7% over 18th century, and 90%+ people would be in the lower class. In essence, if we want some sweeping generalizations and be generous, then assuming 1%/9%/90% for upper/middle/lower class is roughly in the ballpark for most societies until the 20th century. So while the noble families are nowhere near 10%, it's not entirely wrong to assert that the top 10% including all the non-noble bourgeoisie, the merchants, doctors, lawyers, officers, etc, would have the means and desire to care about fashion.
gwenzek 3y ago
Graphic 5.2 in http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2019GraphiquesTableaux.pdf http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2019GraphiquesTableau... In France it was down to less than 1% at the time of Revolution, but some countries like Spain that had centuries long wars, was closer to 6-8% range.