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>"Americans have trouble facing the truth," Carlin said. "So they invent a kind of a soft language to protect themselves from it" It is useful and not limited

by mrtksn 3y ago

>"Americans have trouble facing the truth," Carlin said. "So they invent a kind of a soft language to protect themselves from it" It is useful and not limited to Americans, that's why people do it. Much more people would have been vegans or they would be much more indifferent to violence if every pack of meat had a QR code to a video showing the life and processing of that particular animal. It's also not just softening that's practiced but hardening too. We dehumanise people all the time if we want to suppress them or kill them institutionally. We humans like to live in an idealised reality, a fiction where we are just and don't practice cruelty, our parent's don't have sex, people have roles(social roles, gender roles, political roles etc) and they always act in a way to honour that. The reality is much more different of course, we kill animals at scale we call terrorist or another dirty word those who we have institutional violent conflicts with and exterminate them, our parents have sex just like anyone else, mothers/fathers/leaders/police/ceo's are human too and they have human desires and human faults. Then there's cultural movements trying to bring these things closer to reality or push them into a new virtual reality. The sex revolution in the west that the eastern world never had for example creates huge divide between lifestyle and family structures between westerners and easterners(it's not that easterner are backward, it's simply another path they took). The more devout muslims practice ceremonial animal sacrifice which often happens on the streets with kids around, so they tend to have different relationship with the animal killing(no, they are cruelty or anything like that, it's just different). IMHO, it's nothing special to Americans but Americans tend to have control over the pop culture because the USA is the dominant culture of the last century. Also, Americans are masters of marketing and they choose their words very intentionally(like the discussion over abortions are framed like "pro choice" and "pro life", which can be very confusing for non-americans).

selfhoster11 3y ago
> Much more people would have been vegans or they would be much more indifferent to violence if every pack of meat had a QR code to a video showing the life and processing of that particular animal. I think more people would be pushing for animal welfare and proper slaughtering/raising conditions if this was done, even if they still ate meat.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Indeed. Over here in France, companies try to advertise that animals are well taken care off, raised outside, etc. I suppose they think it is relevant for enough people to spend money advertising it. And GP's example shows that seeing the animals being killed doesn't mean people will stop eating meat. "the more devout muslims practice ceremonial animal sacrifice which often happens on the streets with kids around, so they tend to have different relationship with the animal killing(no, they are cruelty or anything like that, it's just different)" In the same vein, my grandparents' village was still very rural when I spent my holidays there as a kid, and the other local children would grow up surrounded by cows, sheep, chickens, and other farm animals. They'd see them be slaughtered and cooked. I can't remember a single one of them turning vegetarian. And it should be noted that the adults wouldn't tolerate any kind of cruelty or abuse towards the animals. Hell, you could even get into trouble for being too loud at night next to a barn where cattle were sleeping.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    I agree, mostly. However the vegetarianism aspect is more nuanced IMHO. In my experience, seeing animal being killed is not enough, it needs to be combined with some kind of affection to the animal by giving it a personality. For example I feel uneasy since I watched cows showing curiosity towards objects and be playful like dogs. Also a friend of mine who used to live in a farm says that the cows can tell that they are going to be slaughtered and start acting differently. I’m not a vegan or vegetarian but I’m looking forward for lab produced meet where no cows are involved.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      I'm not convinced the personality thing is sufficient, or maybe I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Cows used to have names, like horses or dogs did. In contrast, house cats usually didn't. Plus, the children used to play with the goats and sheep while they were still small. I'm not very familiar with the cows (my grandparents didn't have any), but I know that goats also tend to be fairly smart, curious and quite playful. As a kid it's fairly easy to develop some attachment to them, especially since there isn't that big of a size difference (a cow can be intimidating to a child because of its size).
imgabe 3y ago
For literally thousands of years humans personally slaughtered animals and had no problem with it. But you assume people wouldn’t do this without some fanciful words for it. Based on what? Wishful thinking?
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Based on the observation that most modern people have no idea where the meat or the vegetables come from. The packaged goods did the consumers from the o Production. Activist are using videos of production lines to promote their agenda.
  - imgabe 3y ago
    The fact that activists are doing something does not mean that it’s effective or anyone cares. People need food. If they don’t happen to know where it comes from they would figure it out with a quickness if it ever became necessary for them to learn.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - imgabe 3y ago
        No, you don’t need to assign yourself to some particular group to have an opinion.
        mrtksn 3y ago
        Okay.
    - bezier-curve 3y ago
      People need food but they don't have to eat factory produced meat that requires huge amounts of CO2 footprint and antibiotics that make our own human populations less resistant to bacteria. Biologically we are carnivores but factory farming is leaving evidence for modern society to determine whether or not it's okay and it definitely gives me pause. People care. I think maybe you're just not caring.
ur-whale 3y ago
> It is useful Says you, and without a hint of rationale to justify a highly questionable claim.
nextlevelwizard 3y ago
Vegan argument is so silly as if meat industry just spun up overnight and only reason people consume delicious and nutritious animal products is because they can but them in sanitized packaging. I hope you also aren’t buying consumer electronics because then you are literally putting animals ahead of humans. Or is that too inconvenient for you and you actually like the cognitive dissonance after all
- mrtksn 3y ago
  I'm puzzled why people are so triggered by the vegan thing. That's not the point. Or maybe it is, maybe the meat eaters culture war is based on the idea of the virtue of eating meat and they get very angry when someone points out that actual animals are being killed, like cut with a knife then let to bleed out then seperated into pieces and shipped to the consumers in a package that doesn't look like an animal that was minding its own business a few days ago? I don't go a day without eating meat but I don't get angry at vegans. Can you explain why are you so aggressive towards me? Is it maybe because, as George Carlin says, you don't want to face the reality of eating meat and I annoyed you by mentioning the source of meat? Why is it so hard to enjoy the pieces of a cow raised and killed(by sticking a knife in its throat, then hung upside down to bleed out) in industrial settings? Maybe the reason for this is the same as the soft language Carlin criticises? Maybe the soft language is a great human invention that lets us kill animal for meat, kill people for land and still feel good about it?
  - salawat 3y ago
    You know, I apologize a bit, because I'm not even sure this answers any of your questions... But you should read Erewhon by Samuel Butler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erewhon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erewhon It was written way back when, but there is even a short section that deals with, ironically, animal rights, that then progresses to plant rights, and does some extrapolating on outcomes when these tendencies are scaled to the extreme, while being set in an environment that, for the time, takes some really scathing shots at the mores of the day which I can't honestly say haven't resurged back into relevance in my lifetime. I don't generally like just telling people to go read things, (nowadays it can feel like giving someone a "free puppy"). But something tells me it may speak to you, if you're willing to embark on the journey.
nullcipher 3y ago
Would we put foxconn related in the QR code of all apple software etc also ? I agree with the spirit of what you are saying but this is hardly the solution. I don't think people are against killing of animals, we have been doing this since man was born. What we are against is modern industrial animal farming.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by mrtksn 3y ago

selfhoster11 3y ago

> Much more people would have been vegans or they would be much more indifferent to violence if every pack of meat had a QR code to a video showing the life and processing of that particular animal. I think more people would be pushing for animal welfare and proper slaughtering/raising conditions if this was done, even if they still ate meat.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
Indeed. Over here in France, companies try to advertise that animals are well taken care off, raised outside, etc. I suppose they think it is relevant for enough people to spend money advertising it. And GP's example shows that seeing the animals being killed doesn't mean people will stop eating meat. "the more devout muslims practice ceremonial animal sacrifice which often happens on the streets with kids around, so they tend to have different relationship with the animal killing(no, they are cruelty or anything like that, it's just different)" In the same vein, my grandparents' village was still very rural when I spent my holidays there as a kid, and the other local children would grow up surrounded by cows, sheep, chickens, and other farm animals. They'd see them be slaughtered and cooked. I can't remember a single one of them turning vegetarian. And it should be noted that the adults wouldn't tolerate any kind of cruelty or abuse towards the animals. Hell, you could even get into trouble for being too loud at night next to a barn where cattle were sleeping.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  I agree, mostly. However the vegetarianism aspect is more nuanced IMHO. In my experience, seeing animal being killed is not enough, it needs to be combined with some kind of affection to the animal by giving it a personality. For example I feel uneasy since I watched cows showing curiosity towards objects and be playful like dogs. Also a friend of mine who used to live in a farm says that the cows can tell that they are going to be slaughtered and start acting differently. I’m not a vegan or vegetarian but I’m looking forward for lab produced meet where no cows are involved.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I'm not convinced the personality thing is sufficient, or maybe I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Cows used to have names, like horses or dogs did. In contrast, house cats usually didn't. Plus, the children used to play with the goats and sheep while they were still small. I'm not very familiar with the cows (my grandparents didn't have any), but I know that goats also tend to be fairly smart, curious and quite playful. As a kid it's fairly easy to develop some attachment to them, especially since there isn't that big of a size difference (a cow can be intimidating to a child because of its size).

imgabe 3y ago

For literally thousands of years humans personally slaughtered animals and had no problem with it. But you assume people wouldn’t do this without some fanciful words for it. Based on what? Wishful thinking?

mrtksn 3y ago
Based on the observation that most modern people have no idea where the meat or the vegetables come from. The packaged goods did the consumers from the o Production. Activist are using videos of production lines to promote their agenda.
- imgabe 3y ago
  The fact that activists are doing something does not mean that it’s effective or anyone cares. People need food. If they don’t happen to know where it comes from they would figure it out with a quickness if it ever became necessary for them to learn.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - imgabe 3y ago
      No, you don’t need to assign yourself to some particular group to have an opinion.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        Okay.
  - bezier-curve 3y ago
    People need food but they don't have to eat factory produced meat that requires huge amounts of CO2 footprint and antibiotics that make our own human populations less resistant to bacteria. Biologically we are carnivores but factory farming is leaving evidence for modern society to determine whether or not it's okay and it definitely gives me pause. People care. I think maybe you're just not caring.

ur-whale 3y ago

> It is useful Says you, and without a hint of rationale to justify a highly questionable claim.

nextlevelwizard 3y ago

Vegan argument is so silly as if meat industry just spun up overnight and only reason people consume delicious and nutritious animal products is because they can but them in sanitized packaging. I hope you also aren’t buying consumer electronics because then you are literally putting animals ahead of humans. Or is that too inconvenient for you and you actually like the cognitive dissonance after all

mrtksn 3y ago
I'm puzzled why people are so triggered by the vegan thing. That's not the point. Or maybe it is, maybe the meat eaters culture war is based on the idea of the virtue of eating meat and they get very angry when someone points out that actual animals are being killed, like cut with a knife then let to bleed out then seperated into pieces and shipped to the consumers in a package that doesn't look like an animal that was minding its own business a few days ago? I don't go a day without eating meat but I don't get angry at vegans. Can you explain why are you so aggressive towards me? Is it maybe because, as George Carlin says, you don't want to face the reality of eating meat and I annoyed you by mentioning the source of meat? Why is it so hard to enjoy the pieces of a cow raised and killed(by sticking a knife in its throat, then hung upside down to bleed out) in industrial settings? Maybe the reason for this is the same as the soft language Carlin criticises? Maybe the soft language is a great human invention that lets us kill animal for meat, kill people for land and still feel good about it?
- salawat 3y ago
  You know, I apologize a bit, because I'm not even sure this answers any of your questions... But you should read Erewhon by Samuel Butler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erewhon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erewhon It was written way back when, but there is even a short section that deals with, ironically, animal rights, that then progresses to plant rights, and does some extrapolating on outcomes when these tendencies are scaled to the extreme, while being set in an environment that, for the time, takes some really scathing shots at the mores of the day which I can't honestly say haven't resurged back into relevance in my lifetime. I don't generally like just telling people to go read things, (nowadays it can feel like giving someone a "free puppy"). But something tells me it may speak to you, if you're willing to embark on the journey.

nullcipher 3y ago

Would we put foxconn related in the QR code of all apple software etc also ? I agree with the spirit of what you are saying but this is hardly the solution. I don't think people are against killing of animals, we have been doing this since man was born. What we are against is modern industrial animal farming.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]