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Canadian tech startup entrepreneur here. Coziness is the biggest hurdle. As a programmer, I can make a really good salary at a tech giant. Even after 4 years o

Canadian tech startup entrepreneur here. Coziness is the biggest hurdle. As a programmer, I can make a really good salary at a tech giant. Even after 4 years of grinding and finally achieving product market fit and growth, my wife doesn't understand why I'm doing a startup. Life could be so much easier working for Google. Heck everyone has a job here. The 2/1,000 missing entrepreneurs don't have an incentive to start. I'm from Ottawa and all my friends work for the federal government with big fat pensions and doing boring work (my perspective mind you). But they have great family lives, lots of vacation and great outside of work experiences. Why the hell would they jump into entrepreneurship? Worst of all, the government workforce is growing faster than that of the private sector! What worries me most is the future - a country cannot get wealthier nor innovate without entrepreneurs. It is s a real concern indeed.

throwawaysleep 3y ago
Canada is very much a "let someone else do it" kind of place. You see that in politics, you see that in business, you see that in government. A lot of that though is simply not wanting to be rich. Americans truly want lambo type wealth. I can't say I have met someone born here who wanted that. We are content to own a house and go to Mexico.
- billy99k 3y ago
  I frequently travel to Toronto and the number of people driving Teslas there has increased 10X in the last 5 years. This could be a result of new Chinese money though and not native Canadians.
  - dleslie 3y ago
    Many Canadians became wealthy via the housing market. Effectively drawing wealth from the mortgaged future potential income of Canada's young first time home buyers. Or, just running STRs in the big cities.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Dunno about other cities, but City of Toronto proper didn't add any net new hotel rooms from 2000 - 2015. And only up 22% in the "Greater Toronto Area", which is way less than that area's pop'n growth. I doubt things improved as airbnb became a thing. p. 10 here: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ed/bgrd/backgroundfile-98820.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ed/bgrd/backgroundf... When your residential construction market is so on fire that you don't even build hotel space, you end up with STRs as a symptom.
- helloooooooo 3y ago
  USA also has a significant amount of generational wealth to go around. Canadas is isolated to a few dozen families in Montreal and Toronto. Canada is at its core, a resource extraction economy. Generational wealth doesn’t really come from that these days.
- mvncleaninst 3y ago
  > We are content to own a house and go to Mexico. But isn't housing ridiculously expensive in the parts of Canada where jobs are concentrated (which I'm pretty sure are around Toronto and Vancouver)? Pardon me if wrong, I'm American ;) For the record, I want those things too, it's just that housing in California is ridiculously unaffordable
  - throwawaysleep 3y ago
    Depends on who you are. For most people, yes it is quite expensive. If you are looking at techies specifically, it is still affordable. For typical knowledge jobs or skilled labour jobs, it is affordable as well if you pair up with someone.
  - 3vidence 3y ago
    Average house price in Toronto $1.3 million. Average SW developer salary 95,000 I would say yes.... this is very unaffordable. The current mortgage on a house of that price is around $8,500 per month
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > I can't say I have met someone born here who wanted that Possibly because the ambitious people moved to the US.
jacquesm 3y ago
The inefficiency of the Canadian government is nothing to be proud of though. It's insane how many people are employed there compared to doing something productive.
- helloooooooo 3y ago
  Implying the employees of the federal government aren’t doing something productive? And the Canadian federal government isn’t even that different in size to the American government, accounting for population different. By what metric are you making your claims?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    By having lived there for almost a decade and interacting frequently with the government, many different departments (taxes, immigration, law enforcement, municipalities, various ministries). I don't see what America has to do with it.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      What other governments have you interacted with recently? My experience after living here for 5 years is that the Canadian and BC government deliver an incredible level of service compared to other jurisdictions I’ve lived in.
  - lcssthrowaway 3y ago
    Just going to toss in my own anecdotes but not so much productive but surprisingly inefficient. My current employer is currently contracted for the federal government and it's painful to do anything. Just an example, I put in a request to order a $40 network module to replace a failed one. On our side it's already painful enough, I had to get approvals from 3 different managers that have to align all of the budgeting before bringing it forward to the federal government's representative for approval. The rep in tern has to bring it to his bosses for approval as well. Typically this takes 12 weeks but this was put in as a critical priority because this was impacting about a hundred people. Probably costing the federal government (cause they're footing the bill) about $12,500 a week in lost productivity because our teams can't do their job properly. Thus their director got to it in a blazing fast 4 weeks. $40 part. $50,000 in lost productivity because they couldn't get a $40 approval for done faster then 4 weeks. The other anecdote I've had is with the Canadian Firearms Center in Miramichi. For those that are unaware, Canadians are required to be licensed under a federal program to own a firearm privately. Miramichi handles much of the paperwork for firearms registration. This was a while ago but last time I saw, they were still manually entering in data from paperwork but also from electronic submission as well. Stuff that could be readily automated and something I demo'd in an afternoon. As it turns out, the inefficiency is intentional because there's a very real fear among the line staff of job reductions if they get too productive per person. And there's not many jobs in Miramichi that pay as well as the federal government (or at least that was the case when I was visiting there probably 20 years ago). So unfortunately there is justification to be as inefficient as possible. But it's always left me wondering how much how much further this attitude extends to other government departments.
bettercallsalad 3y ago
What are you talking about? Coziness? Are you one of those people you bought a house in the 2010s and are now well positioned to cash in and live a life of comfort with 500$ mortgages while homes out there are near a million dollar. Because then it would make sense. Problem with Canada is the cost of living is too high. And there is more money if you move south. Easy. A job in US would easily pay you twice if you are in tech. Why would you want to live in Canada? Oh did I say the taxes. For a millennial,ife is way more harder.
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  They said working in big tech as an engineer. It's cozy. It pays well. Ask anyone who's done it. It's a fair description.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  Plenty of affordable homes in Canada at the $500,000 mortgage + down payment range. Go find a smaller city and grow with it because you have the same affordability problem in San Francisco or New York. Your tech salary isn't getting you a house there either. The time to buy a house in Toronto was when they cost $5,000 after the war or was the time to buy in 1975 when the property cost $30,000 or in the 90s when you could have gotten a house for $200,000. In 2012 for $500,000 you could get a house in 2021 it was 1.3 million now it's 1.1 million. In 2015 you could have purchased a home in New Brunswick for $25,000.. Your 1.1 million dollar home you buy today will be worth 5 million in 50 years at least 2 million in 20 years. Still as good of an investment as ever. It's like bitcoin sure it would have been great buying coins for 5 cents and today and you would be a billionaire but you weren't able to make that bet. If you want to buy at the 5 cent level you need to find another coin because that opportunity passed. You weren't able to buy a home in 2010 or 1947 so you are never getting those prices again. You can buy today but don't expect the same prices on the same properties as if you lived in the past
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Small cities usually don't become cosmopolitan cultural centers in the span of a lifetime. So growing with a small city with the plan of living there long term isn't viable. Growing with a small city as an investment vehicle seems like it would run into problems predicting which small city is going to see significant growth.
ChumpGPT 3y ago
>Heck everyone has a government job here...ftfy 1 in every 4 people work for the Gov in Ontario and it is increasing. An elementary school teacher, fireman, Police officer and even some postal workers make more than most programmers. HS teachers retired with million dollar pension at 57 and collect 60-70k a year. There are regular cops making 120k a year. There are more STEM jobs in some US cities than there are in entire provinces. There is no work in Canada unless you find a Gov job. Private industry pays like shit in Canada, it's embarrassing. Everyone I know flees to the US first chance they get. Canadian private industry pays like shit and most folks are either slaves or under employed if they are lucky enough to find work. It is an incredibly bad situation across the entire country.
preommr 3y ago
> Coziness is the biggest hurdle. As a programmer, I can make a really good salary at a tech giant. Even after 4 years of grinding and finally achieving product market fit and growth, my wife doesn't understand why I'm doing a startup. Life could be so much easier working for Google. If this was a major factor then it would also apply to entrepreneurs in the US, yet it doesn't.
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  There are a lot of engineers in big tech in the bay area who would start a company if not for their 6-700k (or more in some cases) salaries. I personally know many and they are making a completely rational choice. People don't make decisions in a vacuum. They make decisions amongst a set of choices.
qlkjwenf 3y ago
The efficiency of the Canadian government is significantly greater than that of Germany, often considered the world's capital of bureaucracy.
visarga 3y ago
Same problem with the imperial exam Keju[1] in China. It would recruit all talent for the state leaving civil society resourceless. The examination path to a government official position was more attractive than being a farmer, scholar or soldier. > Since the introduction of the examination system … scholars have forsaken their studies, peasants their ploughs, artisans their crafts, and merchants their trades; all have turned their attention to but one thing – government office. This is because the official has all the combined advantages of the four without requiring their necessary toil … We can see its effects in the long run: promoting conformity at any cost, losing ability to innovate and improve. [1] https://aeon.co/essays/why-chinese-minds-still-bear-the-long-shadow-of-keju https://aeon.co/essays/why-chinese-minds-still-bear-the-long...

throwawaysleep 3y ago

Canada is very much a "let someone else do it" kind of place. You see that in politics, you see that in business, you see that in government. A lot of that though is simply not wanting to be rich. Americans truly want lambo type wealth. I can't say I have met someone born here who wanted that. We are content to own a house and go to Mexico.

billy99k 3y ago
I frequently travel to Toronto and the number of people driving Teslas there has increased 10X in the last 5 years. This could be a result of new Chinese money though and not native Canadians.
- dleslie 3y ago
  Many Canadians became wealthy via the housing market. Effectively drawing wealth from the mortgaged future potential income of Canada's young first time home buyers. Or, just running STRs in the big cities.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Dunno about other cities, but City of Toronto proper didn't add any net new hotel rooms from 2000 - 2015. And only up 22% in the "Greater Toronto Area", which is way less than that area's pop'n growth. I doubt things improved as airbnb became a thing. p. 10 here: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ed/bgrd/backgroundfile-98820.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ed/bgrd/backgroundf... When your residential construction market is so on fire that you don't even build hotel space, you end up with STRs as a symptom.
helloooooooo 3y ago
USA also has a significant amount of generational wealth to go around. Canadas is isolated to a few dozen families in Montreal and Toronto. Canada is at its core, a resource extraction economy. Generational wealth doesn’t really come from that these days.
mvncleaninst 3y ago
> We are content to own a house and go to Mexico. But isn't housing ridiculously expensive in the parts of Canada where jobs are concentrated (which I'm pretty sure are around Toronto and Vancouver)? Pardon me if wrong, I'm American ;) For the record, I want those things too, it's just that housing in California is ridiculously unaffordable
- throwawaysleep 3y ago
  Depends on who you are. For most people, yes it is quite expensive. If you are looking at techies specifically, it is still affordable. For typical knowledge jobs or skilled labour jobs, it is affordable as well if you pair up with someone.
- 3vidence 3y ago
  Average house price in Toronto $1.3 million. Average SW developer salary 95,000 I would say yes.... this is very unaffordable. The current mortgage on a house of that price is around $8,500 per month
WalterBright 3y ago
> I can't say I have met someone born here who wanted that Possibly because the ambitious people moved to the US.

jacquesm 3y ago

The inefficiency of the Canadian government is nothing to be proud of though. It's insane how many people are employed there compared to doing something productive.

helloooooooo 3y ago
Implying the employees of the federal government aren’t doing something productive? And the Canadian federal government isn’t even that different in size to the American government, accounting for population different. By what metric are you making your claims?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  By having lived there for almost a decade and interacting frequently with the government, many different departments (taxes, immigration, law enforcement, municipalities, various ministries). I don't see what America has to do with it.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    What other governments have you interacted with recently? My experience after living here for 5 years is that the Canadian and BC government deliver an incredible level of service compared to other jurisdictions I’ve lived in.
- lcssthrowaway 3y ago
  Just going to toss in my own anecdotes but not so much productive but surprisingly inefficient. My current employer is currently contracted for the federal government and it's painful to do anything. Just an example, I put in a request to order a $40 network module to replace a failed one. On our side it's already painful enough, I had to get approvals from 3 different managers that have to align all of the budgeting before bringing it forward to the federal government's representative for approval. The rep in tern has to bring it to his bosses for approval as well. Typically this takes 12 weeks but this was put in as a critical priority because this was impacting about a hundred people. Probably costing the federal government (cause they're footing the bill) about $12,500 a week in lost productivity because our teams can't do their job properly. Thus their director got to it in a blazing fast 4 weeks. $40 part. $50,000 in lost productivity because they couldn't get a $40 approval for done faster then 4 weeks. The other anecdote I've had is with the Canadian Firearms Center in Miramichi. For those that are unaware, Canadians are required to be licensed under a federal program to own a firearm privately. Miramichi handles much of the paperwork for firearms registration. This was a while ago but last time I saw, they were still manually entering in data from paperwork but also from electronic submission as well. Stuff that could be readily automated and something I demo'd in an afternoon. As it turns out, the inefficiency is intentional because there's a very real fear among the line staff of job reductions if they get too productive per person. And there's not many jobs in Miramichi that pay as well as the federal government (or at least that was the case when I was visiting there probably 20 years ago). So unfortunately there is justification to be as inefficient as possible. But it's always left me wondering how much how much further this attitude extends to other government departments.

bettercallsalad 3y ago

What are you talking about? Coziness? Are you one of those people you bought a house in the 2010s and are now well positioned to cash in and live a life of comfort with 500$ mortgages while homes out there are near a million dollar. Because then it would make sense. Problem with Canada is the cost of living is too high. And there is more money if you move south. Easy. A job in US would easily pay you twice if you are in tech. Why would you want to live in Canada? Oh did I say the taxes. For a millennial,ife is way more harder.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
They said working in big tech as an engineer. It's cozy. It pays well. Ask anyone who's done it. It's a fair description.
ipaddr 3y ago
Plenty of affordable homes in Canada at the $500,000 mortgage + down payment range. Go find a smaller city and grow with it because you have the same affordability problem in San Francisco or New York. Your tech salary isn't getting you a house there either. The time to buy a house in Toronto was when they cost $5,000 after the war or was the time to buy in 1975 when the property cost $30,000 or in the 90s when you could have gotten a house for $200,000. In 2012 for $500,000 you could get a house in 2021 it was 1.3 million now it's 1.1 million. In 2015 you could have purchased a home in New Brunswick for $25,000.. Your 1.1 million dollar home you buy today will be worth 5 million in 50 years at least 2 million in 20 years. Still as good of an investment as ever. It's like bitcoin sure it would have been great buying coins for 5 cents and today and you would be a billionaire but you weren't able to make that bet. If you want to buy at the 5 cent level you need to find another coin because that opportunity passed. You weren't able to buy a home in 2010 or 1947 so you are never getting those prices again. You can buy today but don't expect the same prices on the same properties as if you lived in the past
- harimau777 3y ago
  Small cities usually don't become cosmopolitan cultural centers in the span of a lifetime. So growing with a small city with the plan of living there long term isn't viable. Growing with a small city as an investment vehicle seems like it would run into problems predicting which small city is going to see significant growth.

ChumpGPT 3y ago

>Heck everyone has a government job here...ftfy 1 in every 4 people work for the Gov in Ontario and it is increasing. An elementary school teacher, fireman, Police officer and even some postal workers make more than most programmers. HS teachers retired with million dollar pension at 57 and collect 60-70k a year. There are regular cops making 120k a year. There are more STEM jobs in some US cities than there are in entire provinces. There is no work in Canada unless you find a Gov job. Private industry pays like shit in Canada, it's embarrassing. Everyone I know flees to the US first chance they get. Canadian private industry pays like shit and most folks are either slaves or under employed if they are lucky enough to find work. It is an incredibly bad situation across the entire country.

preommr 3y ago

> Coziness is the biggest hurdle. As a programmer, I can make a really good salary at a tech giant. Even after 4 years of grinding and finally achieving product market fit and growth, my wife doesn't understand why I'm doing a startup. Life could be so much easier working for Google. If this was a major factor then it would also apply to entrepreneurs in the US, yet it doesn't.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
There are a lot of engineers in big tech in the bay area who would start a company if not for their 6-700k (or more in some cases) salaries. I personally know many and they are making a completely rational choice. People don't make decisions in a vacuum. They make decisions amongst a set of choices.

qlkjwenf 3y ago

The efficiency of the Canadian government is significantly greater than that of Germany, often considered the world's capital of bureaucracy.

visarga 3y ago

Same problem with the imperial exam Keju[1] in China. It would recruit all talent for the state leaving civil society resourceless. The examination path to a government official position was more attractive than being a farmer, scholar or soldier. > Since the introduction of the examination system … scholars have forsaken their studies, peasants their ploughs, artisans their crafts, and merchants their trades; all have turned their attention to but one thing – government office. This is because the official has all the combined advantages of the four without requiring their necessary toil … We can see its effects in the long run: promoting conformity at any cost, losing ability to innovate and improve. [1] https://aeon.co/essays/why-chinese-minds-still-bear-the-long-shadow-of-keju https://aeon.co/essays/why-chinese-minds-still-bear-the-long...