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A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumberso
by macNchz 3y ago
A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The result is that even though I own a gas car, I now know of more–and more convenient–places in the area where I could charge an electric car than I do gas stations. Interesting shift!
- zdragnar 3y agoICE cars don't need to fill up near home, because it is so quick. EVs ideally fill up where they're going to be unattended, because it takes longer. It makes sense that you'd find more EV charging in residential areas and more gas stations near where people travel and work.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoif you have to drive 15 minutes there and 15 minutes back, that's not faster than a fast-charge top-up at the fast charge point down the street, though. There's a critical density below which if you have a charge point nearby the nuisance of "going out for gas" and not being able to do anything else during that time isn't worth it compared to plugging in your car, and then just walking away for an hour. Especially if it's just down the road and you can just walk home, then walk back an hour later to pick up your car. Because that's what's really in competition: you have to be with your car the entire drive to and from the gas station, plus the few minutes it takes to fill up and pay, whereas you don't have to be with your car when you're plugging it in to charge: that time is now yours.
- daveFNbuck 3y agoI don't think most people make a special trip just to get gas. It's usually a quick added stop along the way of another trip, which is less of a nuisance than having to make two small walks to move and plug/unplug your car.
- chongli 3y agoThe GP was responding to a point about the closure of gas stations accelerating the decline of ICE vehicles. If all the stations near where you normally travel close, then you are forced to make a special trip to fill up.
- mcpackieh 3y agoThe last gas stations standing won't be in remote areas far from everything else. They'll be in heavily trafficked areas that everybody goes to regularly, particularly near grocery stores.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoAnd in those cases plugging in your EV amounts to no net gain or loss, but there absolutely are people who already have to make a dedicated trip to the gas station because their own town where they do their shopping simply doesn't have one.
- zdragnar 3y agoSure, but this conversation was about an urban area being converted from industrial to residential. The people who will be living there with ICEs will certainly be driving them past gas stations elsewhere in the city.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoNo, we're not. We're talking about Norway as a whole, a country where for the vast majority of people, "urban centers" are few and far between. With an anecdote that highlights that even in urban setting there are areas where it's apparently easier to drive an EV than ICE.
- vel0city 3y agoBut if there's no longer any gas stations on any of my usual trips, it'll become a special trip. Also it's not fun having to make your trip even longer stopping to get gas. I'd prefer to just leave the house with a full tank every time.
- fbdab103 3y agoFew people make a special trip to fill an ICE car. It is almost always a side trip on the way to another activity.
- jliptzin 3y agoFew people today
- nucleardog 3y agoI don’t know anyone that often drives somewhere specifically to get gas. As long as you occasionally drive past a gas station during your travels you just stop in for 3-5 minutes and fill the car up. Even if there isn’t one directly on your route, we’re talking a long ways off I think that you need to travel 15 or minutes from every point of your trip to each a gas station. Like, we've reached such a low density that the entire distribution network is barely even sustainable anymore.
- TheRealPomax 3y agoTime to move to the country side. Discover a whole new aspect of "...so you're saying I can get basic groceries in town, but gas is 15 minutes further in the opposite direction of where I live?".
- nucleardog 3y agoMaybe Canada's just a bit different then. I've lived in a few rural areas and do currently. Previously I was located 1.5 hours and two ferry rides from the nearest police detachment. The acreage I'm on right now is in the catchment area for a town of 500 people. Spent some time in the prairies where, if you're not living in the two major cities, there's 1/10 the population of Norway spread out over almost double the land area. A gas station has never been hard to come by in my experience. Anywhere I've been that's big enough to have a grocery store has a gas station. Anywhere not big enough to have a grocery store has a gas station, and that gas station probably has a limited selection of groceries. And if you live somewhere small enough that you don't have either, chances are you're occasionally driving your car to somewhere that does because you generally need to buy groceries and other supplies.
- Arnt 3y agoWhat you're descriving is a lot of Norway. Low density, and employees cost a lot per hour.
- billfor 3y agoWhere do you see convenient charging stations? Tesla shows 4 superchargers in all of Manhattan and 3 in Brooklyn, not including 3rd party stations that can take 2 hours to charge the car. What is the population of Manhattan and Brooklyn?
- rho138 3y agoJust a friendly reminder that Tesla isn’t the only show in town. Chargepoint shows several thousand charging stations just in manhattan.
- jncfhnb 3y agoYou don’t need the superchargers
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoOh yes, because people in Manhattan lives usually have driveway. Of course.
- jncfhnb 3y agoYou don’t need driveways either???
- macNchz 3y agoThere are curbside charging locations popping up around my neighborhood and most parking garages seem to have some charging capacity now. There certainly isn’t enough infrastructure for the whole population of car owners to go electric tomorrow, but it’s interesting to see big changes happening in real time.
- jliptzin 3y agoI have had a tesla for 4 years, I have used super chargers maybe a dozen times total. And I do about 15,000 miles/yr.
- thebruce87m 3y agoI only use Superchargers for long journeys, and I don’t do many. Even when I do it’s only 20mins max and then off. I haven’t used any public charging in the last 3 months.
- goles 3y agoPerhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment inspired lots of spirited discussion. Would like to stress the "Perhaps not in NYC" part and if this trend spreads to say Oklahoma.
- Scoundreller 3y agoIt’s NYC. There’s going to be an underground gas distribution that fills that gap.
- boringg 3y agoChina has EVs that aren't luxury and I'm pretty sure Europe does as well if I am reading your comment correct you are trying to insinuate that EVs are luxury. If not your comment needs some clarity.
- goles 3y agoWhat is the least expensive EV one could buy in the middle of nowhere North America? I'm open to anyones knowledge in this area I dont have but our primary mode of transportation when we were struggling was a $2,000 USD 30 year old Toyota. If you don't think EVs are a luxury than we both need some clarity.
- macNchz 3y agoOn cars.com right now it looks like the electric price floor is roughly $5k, which gets you a 10 year old Nissan Leaf, though it looks like they mostly have lower mileage than comparable-age ICE cars. Used car prices have ballooned in recent years, so I’m not sure how much lower you can go without buying a complete heap. As a comparison I looked at the cheapest Nissan Sentras and Versas on the market, which are about $4k, a bit older, and have 200k miles.
- thelastgallon 3y agoOwning a gas car will become inconvenient and expensive very soon. The number of gas stations has gone down from 202K to 115K, ~50% down[1]. Gas stations make very little money on gas, most of their income is from people buying cigarette, lotteries, lotto, beer, beverages, and some trinkets in the store. All profits are at the margins. When foot traffic drops, even by 10 - 20%, gas stations are not viable. They can increase gas prices, but that will further reduce foot traffic, because most everyone uses gasbuddy or similar apps to find the cheapest gas. And Costco, Walmart, etc can be extremely competitive on gas and even make these loss leaders to drive foot traffic as well as EV charging spots. Gas stations have no move left to gain foot traffic. 10% EV adoption is not far off, thats when we start seeing collapse of gas station. EVs charge at home or work, except when going on long rides. Gas stations lose this foot traffic forever. Adding EV spots at gas station won't help, there is nothing for people to do to for 15 - 20 mins at a gas station, they'd rather go to Target, Walmart, Costco and do some grocery shopping. Most people don't understand how quickly things change. We went from flip phones to smart phones in less than decade. Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains How The Horse Industry Vanished in less than 20 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvzw7NPmppY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvzw7NPmppY Folks buying new ICE cars will soon (< 10 years) have a rapidly depreciating vehicle, nearly worthless because it will be costly to own and operate. It will be like owning a horse after everyone bought a car. [1]The first gas station in the United States opened in St. Louis in 1905, and by 1994 there were 202,800 across the country. Fast forward to 2013, and station numbers had decreased by 25% or almost 50,000, and by 2020 that number had shrunk to 115,200. A 2019 report by BCG predicts that 80% of conventional gas stations could be driven (pun intended) out of business by 2035: https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-sooner-than-you-think/ https://enpowered.com/the-death-of-gas-stations-will-be-far-...
- throw_pm23 3y agoGood observations (and relevant username). Just pointing out that people spending 15-20 mins at stations is not unrealistic. At least near motorways, gas stations already position themselves as a place where you can do your regular rest during a long drive, with diners, cafes, children's playgrounds, etc., some drivers even catch a quick nap in the parking lot -- this is how it looks in Europe at least.