3 ms·

Yeah I mean that seems like common sense— if you want to insult a strongman dictator for being brutal, probably not a great idea to go to his country where he i

Yeah I mean that seems like common sense— if you want to insult a strongman dictator for being brutal, probably not a great idea to go to his country where he is judge, jury, and executioner!

spacecadet 3y ago
Yeah I agree. Why the fuck go there afterward. Begs the question, was the insult meant to highlight the evils or highlight the person making the insult.
Teever 3y ago
You seem to have missed the part about the Chinese police coming to you. As a Canadian I am so dismayed that the response from my goverment when those police stations were found wasn't to raid them with swat teams and lead everyone found inside out in handcuffs. If we can't respond to a foreign country setting up police stations without permission what can we do?
- foobarian 3y ago
  This is where Americans keen on 2nd amendment rights get to say, 'we told you so!'.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    ? So randos with guns should be able to just waltz in and kill or arrest officers of a foreign government because they think those guys are spies or something? Sounds more like a "we told you so" for everyone who is against every morally unsound dumbass in the country being able to own a firearm. And to be clear, I am with the other poster who said he wishes the Canadian government's response was stronger when it came to the Chinese "stations". That is of course the proper mechanism for handling this.
  - Teever 3y ago
    These Chinese police stations exist in the United States as well. I have not heard of any 2nd amendment 'events' that have occured at these stations.
    - foobarian 3y ago
      The thing I wonder is, what is the impact of a known armed populace on the willingness of foreign powers to set up operations like this? I.e. if you were able to re-roll the United States disarmed like the UK, would there be more Chinese police stations? I guess we'll never know.
      - jstarfish 3y ago
        None, which is why the 2nd Amendment is a joke at our own expense. The only people who fear the guns of Americans are women and children. Even if I had material evidence that the house next door is a nest of Chinese spies, there is no cause, precedent or excuse for me to kick in the door and waste everyone inside. My doing so would instigate an international incident in their favor, and I would never see freedom again. Guns pose no threat whatsoever to adversaries who treat human life as disposable, and who know our weapons can't be lawfully used against them on our own soil. It's literally win-win for them.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > None, which is why the 2nd Amendment is a joke at our own expense. The second amendment (along with other aspects of the Constitution relating to the militia) is largely an attempt at protection against our own government setting up large dedicate internal and external security forces which would naturally become insular subcultures (the internal security forces being the most critical one, though external services were a threat because they have a history of being called on for internal security when the government feels particularly threatened), by instead protecting the capacity for and promoting the use of a small permanent cadre supplemented by the militia of the general citizenry for both purposes. It completely failed both as to external and internal security, but it wasn't a bad idea. (Ironically, the people most hyped about the second amendment also tend to be rather aggressively in favor of giving more resources, responsibility, and leeway to permanent security forces, both internal and external, and are violently opposed to people who promote things like defunding the police.)
- DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
  Those "police stations" were not what you'd picture when you hear the word "police station." They didn't have police officers, and they couldn't arrest anyone. I don't think they even had government employees. In the cases I've read about, they were set up by local Chinese associations, and the main service they provided was verifying the identities of Chinese people who wanted to do things like renewing their Chinese driver's license.
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    No, that was their cover story.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    If you can't see the obvious problems with that arrangement, re-read what you said and think about the implications until you do. It's a satellite spy office operating as police officers abroad while conspicuously denying their role. They're barely hiding it but you bought an obvious cover story without a second thought. "They're not real police, they're not even affiliated with the government, but they'll helpfully do things like help expats put themselves on the CCP radar by performing essential services like...verifying their identities and renewing drivers' licenses." That's what the fucking consulate is for. This arrangement is like me offering to "help" you by living in your backyard and peeking in your windows randomly to make sure you're still alive.
    - glenstein 3y ago
      Right, and playing games with words is how you have 'advisors' in Vietnam, 'team members' who aren't eligible for benefits, 'enemy combatants' whose legal designation allows them to elide any rights typically afforded the accused. I've sometimes heard it said that job search centers can help people look for jobs, but they still expect people to be able to fill out an application, because that's a bare minimum expectation that an employer is entitled to have. And I feel like there's some sort of correlate when it comes to a certain amount of functional literacy in conversations like this. If a person doesn't have the literacy to understand that the exercise of shuffling labels around to insulate from criticism or evaluation, to me that someone who's not showing up having fulfilled a bare minimum expectation of functional literacy. It's not a formal or informal fallacy but I do think it's fair to categorize it as a failure to bring the necessary type of functional literacy to a conversation of this nature.
mschuster91 3y ago
> if you want to insult a strongman dictator for being brutal, probably not a great idea to go to his country At least China is (as I linked) known for threatening the families of regime critics in exile; reports from Turkish people in Germany suggests the same for Turkey (where groups as the "Grey Wolves" act like the Turkish government's "enforcers"), and there's also anecdotal reports from African refugees that they are extorted to pay back the smugglers. [1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/erdogans-gegner-werden-in-berlin-bedroht-5478373.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/erdogans-gegner-werden-in...

Yeah I mean that seems like common sense— if you want to insult a strongman dictator for being brutal, probably not a great idea to go to his country where he is judge, jury, and executioner!

spacecadet 3y ago

Yeah I agree. Why the fuck go there afterward. Begs the question, was the insult meant to highlight the evils or highlight the person making the insult.

Teever 3y ago

You seem to have missed the part about the Chinese police coming to you. As a Canadian I am so dismayed that the response from my goverment when those police stations were found wasn't to raid them with swat teams and lead everyone found inside out in handcuffs. If we can't respond to a foreign country setting up police stations without permission what can we do?

foobarian 3y ago
This is where Americans keen on 2nd amendment rights get to say, 'we told you so!'.
- catlover76 3y ago
  ? So randos with guns should be able to just waltz in and kill or arrest officers of a foreign government because they think those guys are spies or something? Sounds more like a "we told you so" for everyone who is against every morally unsound dumbass in the country being able to own a firearm. And to be clear, I am with the other poster who said he wishes the Canadian government's response was stronger when it came to the Chinese "stations". That is of course the proper mechanism for handling this.
- Teever 3y ago
  These Chinese police stations exist in the United States as well. I have not heard of any 2nd amendment 'events' that have occured at these stations.
  - foobarian 3y ago
    The thing I wonder is, what is the impact of a known armed populace on the willingness of foreign powers to set up operations like this? I.e. if you were able to re-roll the United States disarmed like the UK, would there be more Chinese police stations? I guess we'll never know.
    - jstarfish 3y ago
      None, which is why the 2nd Amendment is a joke at our own expense. The only people who fear the guns of Americans are women and children. Even if I had material evidence that the house next door is a nest of Chinese spies, there is no cause, precedent or excuse for me to kick in the door and waste everyone inside. My doing so would instigate an international incident in their favor, and I would never see freedom again. Guns pose no threat whatsoever to adversaries who treat human life as disposable, and who know our weapons can't be lawfully used against them on our own soil. It's literally win-win for them.
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > None, which is why the 2nd Amendment is a joke at our own expense. The second amendment (along with other aspects of the Constitution relating to the militia) is largely an attempt at protection against our own government setting up large dedicate internal and external security forces which would naturally become insular subcultures (the internal security forces being the most critical one, though external services were a threat because they have a history of being called on for internal security when the government feels particularly threatened), by instead protecting the capacity for and promoting the use of a small permanent cadre supplemented by the militia of the general citizenry for both purposes. It completely failed both as to external and internal security, but it wasn't a bad idea. (Ironically, the people most hyped about the second amendment also tend to be rather aggressively in favor of giving more resources, responsibility, and leeway to permanent security forces, both internal and external, and are violently opposed to people who promote things like defunding the police.)
DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
Those "police stations" were not what you'd picture when you hear the word "police station." They didn't have police officers, and they couldn't arrest anyone. I don't think they even had government employees. In the cases I've read about, they were set up by local Chinese associations, and the main service they provided was verifying the identities of Chinese people who wanted to do things like renewing their Chinese driver's license.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  No, that was their cover story.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  If you can't see the obvious problems with that arrangement, re-read what you said and think about the implications until you do. It's a satellite spy office operating as police officers abroad while conspicuously denying their role. They're barely hiding it but you bought an obvious cover story without a second thought. "They're not real police, they're not even affiliated with the government, but they'll helpfully do things like help expats put themselves on the CCP radar by performing essential services like...verifying their identities and renewing drivers' licenses." That's what the fucking consulate is for. This arrangement is like me offering to "help" you by living in your backyard and peeking in your windows randomly to make sure you're still alive.
  - glenstein 3y ago
    Right, and playing games with words is how you have 'advisors' in Vietnam, 'team members' who aren't eligible for benefits, 'enemy combatants' whose legal designation allows them to elide any rights typically afforded the accused. I've sometimes heard it said that job search centers can help people look for jobs, but they still expect people to be able to fill out an application, because that's a bare minimum expectation that an employer is entitled to have. And I feel like there's some sort of correlate when it comes to a certain amount of functional literacy in conversations like this. If a person doesn't have the literacy to understand that the exercise of shuffling labels around to insulate from criticism or evaluation, to me that someone who's not showing up having fulfilled a bare minimum expectation of functional literacy. It's not a formal or informal fallacy but I do think it's fair to categorize it as a failure to bring the necessary type of functional literacy to a conversation of this nature.

mschuster91 3y ago

> if you want to insult a strongman dictator for being brutal, probably not a great idea to go to his country At least China is (as I linked) known for threatening the families of regime critics in exile; reports from Turkish people in Germany suggests the same for Turkey (where groups as the "Grey Wolves" act like the Turkish government's "enforcers"), and there's also anecdotal reports from African refugees that they are extorted to pay back the smugglers. [1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/erdogans-gegner-werden-in-berlin-bedroht-5478373.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/erdogans-gegner-werden-in...