7 ms·

Americans talks as if their democracy was fine, that the last president didn’t spend months telling everyone the results were fake and how a revolt happened on

Americans talks as if their democracy was fine, that the last president didn’t spend months telling everyone the results were fake and how a revolt happened on January 6th. It’s not a frustrating outcome of democracy. It’s a failure of democracy with one party trying to take over and destroy all other opinions by all means necessary, which includes an open revolt and election stealing.

skulk 3y ago
Further in this direction, currently the lower house is being held hostage by a small group of extremists from the majority party who have no interest in governance. I don't actually share the opinion that this is a breakdown of democracy per se, but rather believe that this is democracy working as intended (by a certain few wealthy people).
- dr-detroit 3y ago
  [dead]
mcpackieh 3y ago
If the lights stay on and food stays on grocery store shelves and people aren't getting dragged out of their homes by revolutionary militias, then democracy is still succeeding in broadly keeping the peace and keeping things humming along. If half the population wants to believe stupid conspiracy theories about the last election, that's fine so long as most of them don't act on it. So long as their attempted coups or revolutions die in the crib before they can do much damage, then democracy is working. > It’s a failure of democracy with one party trying to take over and destroy all other opinions by all means necessary Lots of people talk shit but almost everybody is still going about their daily lives in a normal civil manner. Obviously the state of American democracy could be better, but don't pronounce the patient dead just because he tripped and got his knee bloodied.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  How about if the patient tripped, knocked their head on the sidewalk, and has started believing some very strange and scary and stupid stuff?
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    Are they otherwise managing to go about their daily life in a civil productive manner? People believing stupid things isn't a failure of democracy, democracy is tolerant of this.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Believing stupid things about democracy is a problem for democracy.
WrongAssumption 3y ago
He sure did. And yet he isn’t the president anymore.
- kristianp 3y ago
  He will be again next year unless something drastically changes, unfortunately.
nradov 3y ago
American democracy is mostly fine. There are certainly some problems and room for improvement, but overall it's doing better than any other major developed country. This is largely thanks to our wonderful written Constitution.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  I grew up in a country without a written constitution (but have lived under the US one for 34 years). I can say with much feeling that it is wonderful to have a written constitution. But this particular one? Not so much. Vastly better ones elsewhere, if only because they have less veto points and a better amendment process.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    It is telling that when the US has helped developing countries write their constitutions, they have not modeled them after their own. The bulk of it was largely designed around the specific circumstances of them 13 colonies->states, many of whom kind of hated each other, and full of appeasements to their different concerns at that time. Everything else has been retrofitted into it since then.
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      Not to mention that we then had a massive civil war, which left many of the underlying representative issues unresolved. It’s 2023 and we still have states trying to re-write their Congressional maps in ways that violate the law. https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1193749552/alabama-congressional-map https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1193749552/alabama-congressio...
- nl 3y ago
  > but overall it's doing better than any other major developed country Which ones? Canada? Japan? Australia? Germany? Even places with significantly unpopular governments like France and the UK don't have a situation where one of the houses of government can't function. I think if the Italian government is more functional than the US then it's time to realize there is a real problem. Here's a list of countries by GDP[1]. I'm looking at it and struggling to find a country that is (a) developed[2] and (b) a democracy and (c) doing worse in terms of functional governance than the US. Turkey and Thailand are two options where they had attempted or actual coups, but neither are classed as developed. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ [2] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/f0773d55-en/1/4/3/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/f0773d55-en&_csp_=5026909c969925715cde6ea16f4854ee&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/f0773d55-en/1/4/3/index....
lukas099 3y ago
The institutions did their jobs. Trump failed to seize power extralegally, despite populist support. The US system of government could be better, but it is functional.
- nl 3y ago
  The institutions didn't do their job. He walked away from an attempted coup with zero consequences to him, and is currently the favorite to challenge at the next election.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    There are issues with using the government to prosecute former leaders and the precedent that that sets.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      There are more issues with not prosecuting people for crimes simply because they were in positions which magnify the threat and impact of those crimes, and both states and the federal government have prosecuted former leaders including state governors, state and federal legislators at all levels, state and federal cabinet secretaries, and even US vice presidents in the past. There is neither a Constitutional nor a rational basis for a special unique exemption for past Presidents, and fortunately state and federal prosecutors seem to recognize that.
      - lukas099 3y ago
        Yeah it can be done, but it's not completely unproblematic.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        No, it really is completely unproblematic; "But", you might ask, "what if a current leader does so as partisan retaliation, is not constrained by other forces, and starts of a chain of retaliation against past leaders?" Sure, but using criminal process or any other power of office to punish partisan enemies is a problem whether or not the target is a past leader; there's no special danger around past leaders. if anything, there is less danger around past or current high government officials in general, and past Presidents in particular, because of the extraordinary degree to which those persons tend to be visible and well-connected politically.

skulk 3y ago

Further in this direction, currently the lower house is being held hostage by a small group of extremists from the majority party who have no interest in governance. I don't actually share the opinion that this is a breakdown of democracy per se, but rather believe that this is democracy working as intended (by a certain few wealthy people).

dr-detroit 3y ago
[dead]

mcpackieh 3y ago

If the lights stay on and food stays on grocery store shelves and people aren't getting dragged out of their homes by revolutionary militias, then democracy is still succeeding in broadly keeping the peace and keeping things humming along. If half the population wants to believe stupid conspiracy theories about the last election, that's fine so long as most of them don't act on it. So long as their attempted coups or revolutions die in the crib before they can do much damage, then democracy is working. > It’s a failure of democracy with one party trying to take over and destroy all other opinions by all means necessary Lots of people talk shit but almost everybody is still going about their daily lives in a normal civil manner. Obviously the state of American democracy could be better, but don't pronounce the patient dead just because he tripped and got his knee bloodied.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
How about if the patient tripped, knocked their head on the sidewalk, and has started believing some very strange and scary and stupid stuff?
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  Are they otherwise managing to go about their daily life in a civil productive manner? People believing stupid things isn't a failure of democracy, democracy is tolerant of this.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Believing stupid things about democracy is a problem for democracy.

WrongAssumption 3y ago

He sure did. And yet he isn’t the president anymore.

kristianp 3y ago
He will be again next year unless something drastically changes, unfortunately.

nradov 3y ago

American democracy is mostly fine. There are certainly some problems and room for improvement, but overall it's doing better than any other major developed country. This is largely thanks to our wonderful written Constitution.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
I grew up in a country without a written constitution (but have lived under the US one for 34 years). I can say with much feeling that it is wonderful to have a written constitution. But this particular one? Not so much. Vastly better ones elsewhere, if only because they have less veto points and a better amendment process.
- lukas099 3y ago
  It is telling that when the US has helped developing countries write their constitutions, they have not modeled them after their own. The bulk of it was largely designed around the specific circumstances of them 13 colonies->states, many of whom kind of hated each other, and full of appeasements to their different concerns at that time. Everything else has been retrofitted into it since then.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    Not to mention that we then had a massive civil war, which left many of the underlying representative issues unresolved. It’s 2023 and we still have states trying to re-write their Congressional maps in ways that violate the law. https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1193749552/alabama-congressional-map https://www.npr.org/2023/09/05/1193749552/alabama-congressio...
nl 3y ago
> but overall it's doing better than any other major developed country Which ones? Canada? Japan? Australia? Germany? Even places with significantly unpopular governments like France and the UK don't have a situation where one of the houses of government can't function. I think if the Italian government is more functional than the US then it's time to realize there is a real problem. Here's a list of countries by GDP[1]. I'm looking at it and struggling to find a country that is (a) developed[2] and (b) a democracy and (c) doing worse in terms of functional governance than the US. Turkey and Thailand are two options where they had attempted or actual coups, but neither are classed as developed. [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ [2] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/f0773d55-en/1/4/3/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/f0773d55-en&_csp_=5026909c969925715cde6ea16f4854ee&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/f0773d55-en/1/4/3/index....

lukas099 3y ago

The institutions did their jobs. Trump failed to seize power extralegally, despite populist support. The US system of government could be better, but it is functional.

nl 3y ago
The institutions didn't do their job. He walked away from an attempted coup with zero consequences to him, and is currently the favorite to challenge at the next election.
- lukas099 3y ago
  There are issues with using the government to prosecute former leaders and the precedent that that sets.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    There are more issues with not prosecuting people for crimes simply because they were in positions which magnify the threat and impact of those crimes, and both states and the federal government have prosecuted former leaders including state governors, state and federal legislators at all levels, state and federal cabinet secretaries, and even US vice presidents in the past. There is neither a Constitutional nor a rational basis for a special unique exemption for past Presidents, and fortunately state and federal prosecutors seem to recognize that.
    - lukas099 3y ago
      Yeah it can be done, but it's not completely unproblematic.
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        No, it really is completely unproblematic; "But", you might ask, "what if a current leader does so as partisan retaliation, is not constrained by other forces, and starts of a chain of retaliation against past leaders?" Sure, but using criminal process or any other power of office to punish partisan enemies is a problem whether or not the target is a past leader; there's no special danger around past leaders. if anything, there is less danger around past or current high government officials in general, and past Presidents in particular, because of the extraordinary degree to which those persons tend to be visible and well-connected politically.