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>This conversation will 1) reinforce that return to office 3+ days a week is a requirement of their job wonder if there are any employees who have a remote wor

>This conversation will 1) reinforce that return to office 3+ days a week is a requirement of their job wonder if there are any employees who have a remote work provision in their contract. I would be surprised, but I would imagine a few were smart when they got hied on

sakopov 3y ago
A close friend of mine still works remote for one of the orgs at Amazon from a city which doesn't have an office. Last I heard none of this stuff impacts his particular org and everyone is allowed to work 100% remote.
- oblio 3y ago
  Give it time.
Aurornis 3y ago
> wonder if there are any employees who have a remote work provision in their contract. EDIT: I'm getting severely downvoted, so I'll try to add some context: Amazon is a big company with corporate counsel. I guarantee their corporate counsel reviewed offer letters and employment agreements that guaranteed working locations or restricted their own ability to change working locations. Avoiding language in offer letters that guarantees things is a basic principal of writing offer letters and employment agreements (Example: https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/how-to-guides/pages/howtocreateanofferletter.aspx https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/how... ) A remote work provision in a contract would require some sort of consequence for breaking that provision: For example, "Amazon agrees to pay 12 months of compensation if employee is required to relocate in the future". I guarantee you that corporate counsel wouldn't let this happen for the average Amazon employee, or else we'd be hearing a lot more about Amazon breaking contracts. --- Employees generally don't have contracts that work like that. The company can change things like where and how you work. Contractors have contracts (obviously), but employees don't have contracts that guarantee things like remote work in most places. This is why employers can lay people off, change their job title, alter their pay, etc. Even if you are hired remote at a company and remote is listed in your offer letter, an offer letter is not a contract. The employer can change the nature of the job. It's analogous to being relocated: The company has changed the location of the job. You can come to the new location or you can leave the job, but you can't force the employer to let you work where you want. For Amazon specifically: I know a couple people who work remotely for Amazon still with no word about RTO. They were hired remote and continue to work remote.
- buildbot 3y ago
  > Employees generally don't have contracts. Everyone I know signed one. It’s just one that can be terminated by either party at any time…
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > Everyone I know signed one. Where? Did it say anything about being guaranteed to work in a specific location, lest the company pay penalties for breach of contract? Your offer letter isn't an employment contract. All of the paperwork you sign during onboarding is a type of contract, but companies are careful to avoid guaranteeing things in those contracts. Employment contracts have a very specific legal definition. An offer letter is not an employment contract, even though it might state your starting compensation and work location. It's very different to believe that your onboarding papers guarantee you anything: Compensation, where you work, your title can all be changed in at-will employment.
    - buildbot 3y ago
      Being a bit pedantic, you said employees don’t have contracts, as in any, I certainly have several. I agree most people don’t have “employment contracts” with defined timelines and places of work. I don’t have this.
      - Aurornis 3y ago
        > I agree most people don’t have “employment contracts” with defined timelines and places of work. I don’t have this. That was the entire point I was trying to make. The thread derailed into pedantry immediately afterward. Sorry for any confusion. You are right, though: People generally do not have employment contracts that guarantee things like remote work. This would imply penalties to the company if they changed their remote work policy. No corporate counsel is going to accidentally let that language into contracts. That's my point.
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  This is not true, even in the US, the land of "right-to-work". An employee and employer enter an agreement that the employee shall deliver the work described, and the employer shall provide a compensation defined in the contract. That's why salaries don't change at random, week-to-week. It's also why when one accepts a raise or promotion, both parties sign a new contract. The same goes in the opposite direction - if an employer wants to cut salaries, both parties have to sign new contracts. The contract has very few stipulations, and a lot of it benefits the employer, but still, this: > Employees generally don't have contracts. is false.
malfist 3y ago
Lots of us were flagged as "virtual - STATE" when we got hired for a job listing labeled "fully remote". Doesn't matter to our CEO. With very few exceptions, those folks have been told to move, often cross country, to wherever their team is concentrated. My team was forced to relocate some of the folks from CA, TX, NY, and UT to Seattle. Mind you, these folks have always worked from the location they were hired in until our CEO decided to change the rules.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- techsupporter 3y ago
  > My team was forced to relocate some of the folks from CA, TX, NY, and UT to Seattle. Meanwhile, our genius of a Mayor is crowing about how "vibrant" downtown is without mentioning any of the consequences like housing getting even more expensive and being on foot or bike is even more dangerous and public transit reliability taking a nosedive. This is working out so great; he's gonna get reelected for life by the downtown chamber of commerce just for convincing Amazon that WFH is silly.

sakopov 3y ago

A close friend of mine still works remote for one of the orgs at Amazon from a city which doesn't have an office. Last I heard none of this stuff impacts his particular org and everyone is allowed to work 100% remote.

oblio 3y ago
Give it time.

Aurornis 3y ago

> wonder if there are any employees who have a remote work provision in their contract. EDIT: I'm getting severely downvoted, so I'll try to add some context: Amazon is a big company with corporate counsel. I guarantee their corporate counsel reviewed offer letters and employment agreements that guaranteed working locations or restricted their own ability to change working locations. Avoiding language in offer letters that guarantees things is a basic principal of writing offer letters and employment agreements (Example: https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/how-to-guides/pages/howtocreateanofferletter.aspx https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/how... ) A remote work provision in a contract would require some sort of consequence for breaking that provision: For example, "Amazon agrees to pay 12 months of compensation if employee is required to relocate in the future". I guarantee you that corporate counsel wouldn't let this happen for the average Amazon employee, or else we'd be hearing a lot more about Amazon breaking contracts. --- Employees generally don't have contracts that work like that. The company can change things like where and how you work. Contractors have contracts (obviously), but employees don't have contracts that guarantee things like remote work in most places. This is why employers can lay people off, change their job title, alter their pay, etc. Even if you are hired remote at a company and remote is listed in your offer letter, an offer letter is not a contract. The employer can change the nature of the job. It's analogous to being relocated: The company has changed the location of the job. You can come to the new location or you can leave the job, but you can't force the employer to let you work where you want. For Amazon specifically: I know a couple people who work remotely for Amazon still with no word about RTO. They were hired remote and continue to work remote.

buildbot 3y ago
> Employees generally don't have contracts. Everyone I know signed one. It’s just one that can be terminated by either party at any time…
- Aurornis 3y ago
  > Everyone I know signed one. Where? Did it say anything about being guaranteed to work in a specific location, lest the company pay penalties for breach of contract? Your offer letter isn't an employment contract. All of the paperwork you sign during onboarding is a type of contract, but companies are careful to avoid guaranteeing things in those contracts. Employment contracts have a very specific legal definition. An offer letter is not an employment contract, even though it might state your starting compensation and work location. It's very different to believe that your onboarding papers guarantee you anything: Compensation, where you work, your title can all be changed in at-will employment.
  - buildbot 3y ago
    Being a bit pedantic, you said employees don’t have contracts, as in any, I certainly have several. I agree most people don’t have “employment contracts” with defined timelines and places of work. I don’t have this.
    - Aurornis 3y ago
      > I agree most people don’t have “employment contracts” with defined timelines and places of work. I don’t have this. That was the entire point I was trying to make. The thread derailed into pedantry immediately afterward. Sorry for any confusion. You are right, though: People generally do not have employment contracts that guarantee things like remote work. This would imply penalties to the company if they changed their remote work policy. No corporate counsel is going to accidentally let that language into contracts. That's my point.
syndicatedjelly 3y ago
This is not true, even in the US, the land of "right-to-work". An employee and employer enter an agreement that the employee shall deliver the work described, and the employer shall provide a compensation defined in the contract. That's why salaries don't change at random, week-to-week. It's also why when one accepts a raise or promotion, both parties sign a new contract. The same goes in the opposite direction - if an employer wants to cut salaries, both parties have to sign new contracts. The contract has very few stipulations, and a lot of it benefits the employer, but still, this: > Employees generally don't have contracts. is false.

malfist 3y ago

Lots of us were flagged as "virtual - STATE" when we got hired for a job listing labeled "fully remote". Doesn't matter to our CEO. With very few exceptions, those folks have been told to move, often cross country, to wherever their team is concentrated. My team was forced to relocate some of the folks from CA, TX, NY, and UT to Seattle. Mind you, these folks have always worked from the location they were hired in until our CEO decided to change the rules.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
techsupporter 3y ago
> My team was forced to relocate some of the folks from CA, TX, NY, and UT to Seattle. Meanwhile, our genius of a Mayor is crowing about how "vibrant" downtown is without mentioning any of the consequences like housing getting even more expensive and being on foot or bike is even more dangerous and public transit reliability taking a nosedive. This is working out so great; he's gonna get reelected for life by the downtown chamber of commerce just for convincing Amazon that WFH is silly.