5 ms·

Prices that AT&T, Verizon and Sprint Charge For Cellphone Wiretaps

57 points by pitdesi 15y ago

pagekalisedown 15y ago
I wonder what Google charges.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rdl 15y ago
The most concerning thing to me is that "tower dumps" are routine enough to have list pricing established. Any judge who would authorize that, in the absence of a reasonable scheme to protect those other than the intended target, has a different understanding of the Constitution than I do. Presumably a tower dump is mainly to target the home/business premises of a target who routinely uses multiple phones (throwaway burners, etc.). That is maybe justifiable, but catching other people (who may or may not be related to the target) merely for network proximity is pretty unreasonable. I could totally see a fishing expedition where a crack spot is targeted.
- joshAg 15y ago
  depending on the wording of the warrant and previous case law, any information found not directly relating to the specific target or anything found because of that information could be inadmissible as evidence.
  - read_wharf 15y ago
    Meanwhile there's the disruption to your life while you're being collaterally investigated, until/if you finally get a judge to say "Oh, right, we weren't supposed to be investigating you. Our bad."
    - joshAg 15y ago
      depending on how the warrant is worded and what specific law enforcement branch and what specific division within that branch is doing the investigation, there won't even be an investigation. do you really think the white collar crimes unit for the fbi is really going to even notice, let alone pass on info regarding a low level drug deal that they catch as part of their multimillion dollar investigation?
- rdl 15y ago
  I really want to make a customer friendly cellphone. It would basically require a new OS, or fork of Amdroid st the least, since iOS can't be customized, but doing everything except the security model would be such a pain. It would also be relatively hostile to the network in traffic (to protect against traffic analysis, you waste bandwidth). An iOS app plus server side services could work, but would leave the user at risk to bypassing security in many places. Moxie Marlinspike did some things like this before selling to Twitter.
da02 15y ago
An economist observed: "If the U.S. Army cannot bring the Ft. Hood shooter to trial after 18 months, you know the system is jammed already. Noise is your friend. The more data the government collects, the more noise exists between you and an agency that seeks convictions." From: http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1118.html http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1118.html
- evoxed 15y ago
  Interesting article. With access to a simply incredible amount of data, I wonder exactly how many people are actually working to parse it for anything other than specific inquiries... Here is the reddit link for opting out of various people data aggregators (after two clickthroughs/for anyone who skipped through the article): http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/j1mit/how_to_remove_yourself_from_all_background_check/ http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/j1mit/how_to_rem...
- pasbesoin 15y ago
  Unfortunately, if perhaps realistically, this assumes/presumes that "the system" -- and public authorities -- are your enemy. Instead of seeking and implementing real, effective, restricted, audited governance, we end up promoting the opposite. Mind you. I've no love for current fascist or neo-fascist tendencies. OTOH, I don't hold much hope for the typical (or, least common denominator) libertarian agenda, either. I try to avoid politics on HN -- and more and more, in general. OTOH, from a societal perspective, one can fairly neutrally ask whether a society can govern itself, or not. The U.S. seems to be increasingly veering towards "not".
evoxed 15y ago
I'd like to know what the interaction is like and whether any of those companies have an internal code to follow regarding who the "don't sell" their services to. Given that there weren't any warrants, the must have something to protect themselves or else I'm just lost. (Aaand another reason I feel good about not having a cell phone.)
- mjwalshe 15y ago
  err as an ex phone company person this will be only for Law enforcement and Security Services. And if anyones trying to do a side deal floging data to crims,taboids FSB or that cute Russian girl who befriended you in a bar the phone companies SD division will come down on you lie a ton of bricks. British Telecoms internal investigation division had a "Fearsome Reputation" and I suspect ATT's is the same and I have certainly heard rumors about MCI playing very hard ball.
  - rdl 15y ago
    The line between state security organs and "national champion corporations" or government owned enterprises is pretty thin. There have been numerous cases of government intelligence resources being used to spy on foreign business people to help domestic businesses win deals. The US is one of the new countries which doesn't do this (along with Canada and the UK), at least to a great degree. In China, it is basically standard, and even in France it has been widespread at least internationally.
    - mjwalshe 15y ago
      Yes there is that on the BBC there was a fascinating program about modern day spying a couple of days ago they even had SIS and MI5 officers speaking abotu their work. I assume it might end up on BBC America saat some stage
conductor 15y ago
Knowing nothing about GSM internals, I wonder if it is possible to create an application (Androind and/or IPhone) which will let you track the keys of the GSM towers, whitelist them, and alert when they are changed/altered?
- peedy 15y ago
  There is something called a cellid which uniquely identifies a cellsite. Can someone confirm if the Android/iPhone API tells you the current cellid ? EDIT : Quick search indicates that the data is available.
  - stephengillie 15y ago
    Open Signal Maps allows you to find your cell tower on a Google Map. I believe it gives you that information too. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.staircase3.opensignal https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.staircase3...

57 points by pitdesi 15y ago

pagekalisedown 15y ago

I wonder what Google charges.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

rdl 15y ago

The most concerning thing to me is that "tower dumps" are routine enough to have list pricing established. Any judge who would authorize that, in the absence of a reasonable scheme to protect those other than the intended target, has a different understanding of the Constitution than I do. Presumably a tower dump is mainly to target the home/business premises of a target who routinely uses multiple phones (throwaway burners, etc.). That is maybe justifiable, but catching other people (who may or may not be related to the target) merely for network proximity is pretty unreasonable. I could totally see a fishing expedition where a crack spot is targeted.

joshAg 15y ago
depending on the wording of the warrant and previous case law, any information found not directly relating to the specific target or anything found because of that information could be inadmissible as evidence.
- read_wharf 15y ago
  Meanwhile there's the disruption to your life while you're being collaterally investigated, until/if you finally get a judge to say "Oh, right, we weren't supposed to be investigating you. Our bad."
  - joshAg 15y ago
    depending on how the warrant is worded and what specific law enforcement branch and what specific division within that branch is doing the investigation, there won't even be an investigation. do you really think the white collar crimes unit for the fbi is really going to even notice, let alone pass on info regarding a low level drug deal that they catch as part of their multimillion dollar investigation?
rdl 15y ago
I really want to make a customer friendly cellphone. It would basically require a new OS, or fork of Amdroid st the least, since iOS can't be customized, but doing everything except the security model would be such a pain. It would also be relatively hostile to the network in traffic (to protect against traffic analysis, you waste bandwidth). An iOS app plus server side services could work, but would leave the user at risk to bypassing security in many places. Moxie Marlinspike did some things like this before selling to Twitter.

da02 15y ago

An economist observed: "If the U.S. Army cannot bring the Ft. Hood shooter to trial after 18 months, you know the system is jammed already. Noise is your friend. The more data the government collects, the more noise exists between you and an agency that seeks convictions." From: http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1118.html http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1118.html

evoxed 15y ago
Interesting article. With access to a simply incredible amount of data, I wonder exactly how many people are actually working to parse it for anything other than specific inquiries... Here is the reddit link for opting out of various people data aggregators (after two clickthroughs/for anyone who skipped through the article): http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/j1mit/how_to_remove_yourself_from_all_background_check/ http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/j1mit/how_to_rem...
pasbesoin 15y ago
Unfortunately, if perhaps realistically, this assumes/presumes that "the system" -- and public authorities -- are your enemy. Instead of seeking and implementing real, effective, restricted, audited governance, we end up promoting the opposite. Mind you. I've no love for current fascist or neo-fascist tendencies. OTOH, I don't hold much hope for the typical (or, least common denominator) libertarian agenda, either. I try to avoid politics on HN -- and more and more, in general. OTOH, from a societal perspective, one can fairly neutrally ask whether a society can govern itself, or not. The U.S. seems to be increasingly veering towards "not".

evoxed 15y ago

I'd like to know what the interaction is like and whether any of those companies have an internal code to follow regarding who the "don't sell" their services to. Given that there weren't any warrants, the must have something to protect themselves or else I'm just lost. (Aaand another reason I feel good about not having a cell phone.)

mjwalshe 15y ago
err as an ex phone company person this will be only for Law enforcement and Security Services. And if anyones trying to do a side deal floging data to crims,taboids FSB or that cute Russian girl who befriended you in a bar the phone companies SD division will come down on you lie a ton of bricks. British Telecoms internal investigation division had a "Fearsome Reputation" and I suspect ATT's is the same and I have certainly heard rumors about MCI playing very hard ball.
- rdl 15y ago
  The line between state security organs and "national champion corporations" or government owned enterprises is pretty thin. There have been numerous cases of government intelligence resources being used to spy on foreign business people to help domestic businesses win deals. The US is one of the new countries which doesn't do this (along with Canada and the UK), at least to a great degree. In China, it is basically standard, and even in France it has been widespread at least internationally.
  - mjwalshe 15y ago
    Yes there is that on the BBC there was a fascinating program about modern day spying a couple of days ago they even had SIS and MI5 officers speaking abotu their work. I assume it might end up on BBC America saat some stage

conductor 15y ago

Knowing nothing about GSM internals, I wonder if it is possible to create an application (Androind and/or IPhone) which will let you track the keys of the GSM towers, whitelist them, and alert when they are changed/altered?

peedy 15y ago
There is something called a cellid which uniquely identifies a cellsite. Can someone confirm if the Android/iPhone API tells you the current cellid ? EDIT : Quick search indicates that the data is available.
- stephengillie 15y ago
  Open Signal Maps allows you to find your cell tower on a Google Map. I believe it gives you that information too. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.staircase3.opensignal https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.staircase3...