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Nearly half of non-Tesla EV owners want to go back to ICE
- killingtime74 3y agoShould be read in conjunction with market share by brands. Tesla is at 50% currently. https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-us-market-share-falls-73e14bb https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-us-market-share-falls...
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- lvturner 3y agoI'd love to see this broken further by country -- infrastructure plays a large role in this. Presently, and if we narrow the lens to only infrastructure, I'd be really hesitant to go back to ICE -- frankly filling up with petrol is far less convenient than plugging the car in when I park.
- steveBK123 3y agoFairly certain these are US numbers though it doesn't call that out explicitly in the text. Note the document has tags, and it is tagged "United States". Also the list of EV brands in the text is very US-centric in what is included and what is missed.
- ethbr1 3y agoDepends on your driving habits. Hard to beat the recharge time of {fossil fuels energy density} x {pump flow rate}, if you're driving non-stop cross-country. 45 MJ/kg x 0.75 kg/L x 38 L/min = 1282.5 MJ/min = ~21,360 kWh charging (If I did my sleepy math right)
- thelastgallon 3y agoI don't know why the ICE folks keep repeating this narrative as if everyone is driving non-stop cross-country. Only 0.8% of trips are over 100 miles. For 99.2% of trips, a round trip is possible with an EV range of 200 miles. (1) 28% of trips are under a mile (2) 52% under three miles (3) 64% under five miles (4) 79% under ten miles (5) 93% under 25 miles (6) 98% under 50 miles For the trips >100 miles, most of these are in cities (regional) that are close by (Eg: {Dallas, Houston, Austin}, {LA,bay are}, {NYC,NJ,Philly,DE,CT}). The use-case of driving non-stop cross-country is non-existent. Nearly nobody does that, it costs 5 - 10X in gas + hotels. Even people who move, they ship their car. https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1230-march-21-2022-more-half-all-daily-trips-were-less-three-miles-2021 https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1230-marc... https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-less-than-100-miles/ https://evstatistics.com/2021/12/99-2-of-us-daily-trips-are-... (edit: added sources)
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- ethbr1 3y agoSaying that most people don't drive country doesn't mean that no one drives cross country. I regularly do 6+ hour trips. Maybe you're different. Cool! World's big enough for different people.
- vaidhy 3y agoI do wildlife photography and generally do a few days camping out in the national parks. EVs do not work for me. Between getting to the park and driving around, I get a lot of range anxiety with a potential expensive tow if I run out. For urban usage, EVs are great.
- jogu 3y agoI think it’s less about driving non-stop cross country and more about how much of a long term decision and investment purchasing a car is. Even if only 1/100 trips I take is over 100 miles I still might want the car I purchase to be able to make that trip.
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- erik_seaberg 3y agoI’d like to see it broken out by houses, apartments, and street parking. Plugging in overnight wasn’t even an option for me a year ago.
- steveBK123 3y agoA lot of factors I think. Tesla buyers skew towards techy types who bought a Tesla because it was an EV (I did). German luxury EVs are nice (I have one), but are bought by ICE owners of the same maker. So online you'll read a lot of MB/BMW/Porsche owners who have an ICE, a PHEV, an EV, etc of the same make and are not committed to anyone one fuel type yet. Charging would be other major factor. In US you will have a better time on NACS than CCS, which is why everyone is capitulating now. So you'll probably see the other makers EV loyalty numbers go +10-20% in 2024-2025 as they convert.
- darrenkopp 3y agoAnecdotal, but I'm sure this is related to everyone adopting Tesla's charging standard, not just because the connector is superior. I have a L2 charger installed in my home, so my life is pretty easy, but even if I didn't the super charger network out here is pretty good. However, when I got a Tesla rental on my trip to Utah last year, I didn't realize how sparse charging is in some places. While I could survive on Tesla's network where I grew up outside of SLC, it'd be pretty annoying... but there's no way I could handle a non-Tesla vehicle out there because there are so few charging options, and they are so slow in comparison, I'd never be able to do it
- steveBK123 3y agoHaving owned Tesla & CCS.. The state of CCS in 2023 is at its peak before it draws down and converts to NACS.. and yet it never even got to Tesla 2018 levels near me in NYC metro areas/I-95 corridor DC-Boston. So they are behind where Tesla was in 2018, and Tesla was actively adding locations more quickly, with more connectors, in better locations than the CCS networks. So the gap only grew. Even in terms of CCS connectors, via MagicDock, Tesla probably installed more in NY state in 2023 than any other CCS network, and possibly all other CCS networks combined. It's just absurd. All that said, I prefer my car over my previous Tesla, I charge at home and am not much of a road tripper so it's all good.
- ReactiveJelly 3y agoShoulda bought a Prius, sunglasses emoji
- 0xbadcafebee 3y agoHell, I work for a charging company, and I'm buying ICE. Of course I want a truck that can haul an RV, and I don't want to spend 60 grand for it. But even if I was buying a regular car, it'd be used half the time for high elevation cold weather hikes, and I don't want to sit around for an hour charging when driving long distance. Let's face it, EVs mostly make sense for around-town driving. Rural people are gonna drive any ICE vehicle they can into the dirt until their prices go up so high that EVs are the economical choice.
- stetrain 3y agoEVs have some advantages at higher elevations since they don't lose power like combustion engines do. They're great with large elevation changes as well due to the power regen on the downhill legs. If the distances are pushing things too far for current EVs I feel you, and there are a lot of places still with limited charging access.
- atomicUpdate 3y ago> EVs have some advantages at higher elevations since they don't lose power like combustion engines do. That’s somewhat true, if you ignore the “cold weather” part. Many (most?) new cars are turbocharged though, which also compensates for the higher altitude. Combine that with the fact most people don’t live in the mountains, and it’s likely range can become an issue in the winter.
- stetrain 3y agoYes, cold weather can reduce range. A lot of newer EVs use heat pumps which help with that efficiency. It all depends on distances and charger availability. If you have home charging and go on hikes in cold mountain weather within a ~100mi radius of home, or a fast charging station, you're probably fine with a lot of EVs on the market.
- 0xbadcafebee 3y agoThe next aspect is capability. 4wd/awd is nice, but in winter on mountain trails you want ground clearance too. And finally, price is a big part of it. Some of us don't want to be saddled with a 15 year payment and interest, on top of the premium you still pay in this economy for any car. Used cars can be had for a 10th of the cost of new, and EVs are even more expensive. Why buy EV at all when ICE is cheaper? For a "regular" consumer car, EVs can be price competitive, and would have been really competitive back in the days of the big rebates. But today, more capable EVs are quite a bit more than ICE. In 10 years hopefully offroad and heavy-duty EVs will be cheaper (and more available - I don't see any F350/F450/F550 EVs). But today there isn't really an option.
- sys_64738 3y agoThe problem is that electric cars have honking massive battery packs which are effectively junk. Until battery tech advances dramatically allowing you to drive thousands of miles then I’ll stick with gasoline engines.
- giantrobot 3y agoMaybe some day someone will invent a rechargeable battery. I guess EVs will just suck until that happens. Shame.
- M95D 3y agoIt already exists. It's called a flow battery. Basically it's a fuel cell that can run in reverse - recharge the used electrolyte/fuel allowing it to be used again. There are many types. They are not used because they don't have the same energy density as Li batteries, plus other disadvantages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
- stetrain 3y agoYou drive thousands of miles without stopping in your gasoline car?
- nullindividual 3y agoI don’t think you need to play ignorant, here. Refueling is significantly faster than recharging and you’re well aware of that fact.
- stetrain 3y agoIt is faster. But that doesn't mean you can't drive thousands of miles in an EV. That statement is just as ignorant. My average road trip charging stop is 10-15 minutes.
- nullindividual 3y ago
- tempsy 3y agoIf you're thinking about buying an EV you should really use an EMF meter while in the car when it is in different states (charging, parked, driving) before deciding. EVs emit a ton of radiation. Not something people talk enough about.
- kccoder 3y agoDo you have a source for this?
- mogwire 3y agoEVs emit no more EMF than your standard appliances. The internet is a vast array of misinformation and comments like this without supporting links just contributes to that misinformation. I will buy a 40-50 dollar emf meter from Amazon and test my washer, dryer, oven, microwave, a blow dryer, the AC unit, and then drive around in my Tesla along with sitting idle and charging it. When the numbers don’t support the “tons” of radiation will you say I’m part of the coverup?
- giantrobot 3y agoDo you realize how much electro-magnetic radiation everything in your house reflects every second of the day? Tons. Most pipes in your house are also literally filled with dihydrogen monoxide which kills thousands of people every year. You don't want to think about the radiation exposure you get just walking outside. It's dangerous out there, be careful.
- belltaco 3y agoDon't forget bananas, exit signs etc. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-radioactive-products-we-use-every-day https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-radioactive-products-we...
- tempsy 3y agoThis is not true at all. EVs emit such high amounts of EMF that it interferes with AM radio, which is why AM radio doesn't exist in any EVs.
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y agoI skimmed the article but could not find the definition of ICE. What acronym is that? Independent carbon emitter?
- xyst 3y agoI’m just tired of cars in general. Fuck the personal vehicle. I want good public transportation and well designed cities. I’ll rent the appropriate vehicle when I need a road trip. Saves me maintenance costs. Fuel costs. Depreciation costs. Yearly inspections with state registration. No more auto insurance needed.
- baggy_trough 3y agoHave at it, but please don’t try to get in the way of the vast majority that prefers cars.
- xyst 3y agoDo you live in the USA? We don’t “prefer” cars. Cars are the only way to get around in this country. There are no options for a majority of people. It’s not a preference. It’s a choice shoved down our throats by decades of destroying urban cores, bulldozing poor communities/neighborhoods in favor of massive highway projects, and removing bustling streets of human activity with useles parking lots. The suburban experiment is a massive failure on all levels. It’s not scalable. It’s incredibly wasteful. Federal/state/local governments dump trillions of dollars on maintenance of this fucking mess.
- baggy_trough 3y agoI believe that take is ahistorical. The other options withered away because most people prefer cars and the associated lifestyle. Dense city cores are still there for the taking, if you can handle the crime.
- eesmith 3y agoThis take is very historical. The government heavily subsidized highway construction, set requirements for massive amounts of available parking, and through the FHA, provided affordable mortgages to white families to move to the suburbs - these new suburbs often had covenants prohibiting black residents. (The new highways were also often built through black neighborhoods, which were often seen as a "blight", were cheaper to acquire through eminent domain, and whose residents didn't have the political or economic power to put up much resistance.) Traffic policies were set up to maximize traffic flow, which often meant more roads, and wide roads, enabling faster speed. But these make it more dangerous to do anything except drive places. Restrictive zoning laws resulting in purely residential areas with no corner shop, so even something as simple getting some milk requires driving to the store. Certainly some people prefer that lifestyle. But the historical truth is that much of it was deliberate top-down policy to encourage people towards that specific lifestyle, and now it's pretty well locked in. Take for example how residential areas were often designed around cul-de-sacs. The idea was to have quiet streets where kids could safely play. However, once the kids get a bit older, what do they do? They can't drive, so can't even do a simple errand like pick up milk. Instead, one of the parents ends up as a private chauffeur, eg, a "soccer mom". Often this means the family must be a two car family as there is no other solution. How many of these soccer moms would prefer having a good bus system so their 12-year-old can go to practice and come home on their own? Even if people do have a preference for single-family housing with a lawn, parking, etc. why should we continue to subsidize that preference? It costs money to provide water, sewer, roads, and power, as well as emergency services and schools, and much of those are fixed costs. For the most part, wealth suburbs are subsidized by poor residents - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI . You've been brainwashed to think there are only two options. There are more than car-dependent suburbia and "dense city cores". That's probably all that you know about, because the planning process for generations in the US has prohibited mid-rise building and multi-family homes. It does not need to be that way. You can have suburbs without being car-dependent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV6ZENGko1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV6ZENGko1I a European compare a US suburb to one in Leipzig. The latter is denser, yes, but not the city core. There are restaurants and schools within walking distance, as well as tram service.
- stetrain 3y ago> Libby adds a caveat: The household data does not necessarily measure whether an EV has been replaced by another EV. The new purchase, in other words, could be a replacement for a different household vehicle. So these numbers would include 2-car households that buy an EV, keep an EV, but replace their other non-EV car with a new gas or hybrid vehicle. And the title here seems a bit misleading in that light, and doesn't match up with the site's title.
- belltaco 3y agoEven in the case you listed, it's still true that Tesla buyers are replacing their other non-EV car with an EV at higher rates than non-Tesla EV buyers, based on the data.
- stetrain 3y agoYes, that is true and interesting.
- r00fus 3y agoThis is probably all due to Tesla's supercharger network. If you like your EV, but your family's 2nd gas car needs replacement - and you have supercharger network, you can tour without any limitations. If you don't, you now need to consider purchasing another ICE vehicle.
- wbsun 3y agoTesla is the only EV in US that can do roadtrip in practice. Both of my family cars are Tesla because of that reason. Maybe things will change when more and more other EVs can also use Tesla superchargers.
- sebazzz 3y agoThis is probably different in Europe where the CCS2 plug is mandatory.
- johnea 3y agoThat sounds really fishy to me. In my personal anecdotal experience, knowing about a dozen people who own EVs, every one of them is looking to increase the number of EVs in the family fleet, not decrease them. Additionally, the people I know that don't drive EVs would generally like to be doing that, and are not doing it now mostly because of the new car cost.