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I wonder what kind of de-optimizations non Tesla makers are signing up for when their hardware gets used on Tesla owned charging infrastructure? (And vice versa

by adolph 3y ago

I wonder what kind of de-optimizations non Tesla makers are signing up for when their hardware gets used on Tesla owned charging infrastructure? (And vice versa) As a thought experiment imagine a Ford gas station where the pumping infrastructure is the same but when a Ford car was present some advantage exists, like maybe optimized octane without extra cost or maybe the pump ran a little faster. Or maybe another analogy would be Walmart running on AWS. Sure there are contracts, guarantees, etc, but there could be other data leaks that give a competitor advantage.

earthboundkid 3y ago
lol, Elon is totally that petty, isn’t he?
ggreer 3y ago
I doubt there will be any noticeable difference. NACS's communication protocol is the same as CCS, and adapters exist in both directions. NACS's plug is smaller because the primary pins support both AC and DC. CCS uses separate pins for AC and DC. Also NACS locks the cable on the car side while CCS locks on both sides. That means with CCS, a malfunctioning cable can strand your car. The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase, but neither does CCS1, which is the version of the CCS standard used in North America and Japan (where household three-phase is rare). Europe uses CCS2, which is an even larger connector than CCS1 (due to the extra pin needed for three-phase).
- caf 3y ago
  Two extra pins. Apart from control pins, Type 1 and NACS have live, neutral and ground. Type 2 has phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, neutral and ground.
- kllrnohj 3y ago
  > The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase The other current downside is it doesn't support up to 1,000V like CCS does, which matters for the currently deployed 800v EVs out there. There's a revision to NACS to support this but it's not currently in the wild yet afaik. That's the next generation of superchargers
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    I believe the revision you are talking about already exists. See page 13 onwards of https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666 https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    I think the 1000V support predates the full NACS release.
- ben1040 3y ago
  > Also NACS locks the cable on the car side while CCS locks on both sides. That means with CCS, a malfunctioning cable can strand your car. I'm just surprised they didn't consider when designing the standard that they're putting a critical moving part on the component most subject to handling and damage. Public charging connectors get just beat up from constant handling from lots of different people, many of whom couldn't care less about the next person to use it.
  - ggreer 3y ago
    Yes, CCS is the worst of the charging standards and Americans are fortunate that the government didn’t mandate it. Thanks to EU legislation, Europeans are now stuck with a comically huge connector that can leave them stranded if they get an unlucky cable. It’s the cookie banner of charging standards.
- adolph 3y ago
  A communication protocol is different from what is being communicated and what extensions might be implemented or discovered for the purpose of fingerprinting vehicles or models of vehicles. For example, a robust PKI might make car theft just a bit harder. Or maybe if you farm kiwis you won't be able to charge your car anymore. ISO 15118 outlines an ecosystem of digital certificates that need to be in place for Plug & Charge to work. This is where public key infrastructures (PKIs) come into play. A PKI is a tree-like, hierarchical structure of trusted third parties called certificate authorities (CAs). These CAs manage the creation, storage, distribution, and revocation of digital certificates. https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/basics-of-plug-and-charge https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/basics-of-plug-and-charge
caf 3y ago
The owner of the charging station has no interest in cars taking up a charging space for any longer than they need to.
- bluGill 3y ago
  The big money is inside sales so they don't care how lolong park so long as you don't leave
  - masklinn 3y ago
    If chargers were set up like gas stations maybe but lots of them are not. There are no inside sales if the charger is next to a hotel, I’m not checking in. The inside sales are also a lot more limited when I have to charge every 2 hours or so, god knows I have poor self control but not so much I’m buying overpriced snacks every time.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Where I live gas stations are starting to install chargers. What the future looks like is a guess and thus nobody knows, but the following is my guess: I expect hotels will limit their chargers to guests only (and likely move to slower/cheaper level2 chargers in all parking spaces). They want their guests arriving by cars to have a full charge in the morning, but they also want the discount from the power company that comes from not running high draw level3 chargers. They can probably get other discounts from the power company by limiting charging hours somehow. I expect malls, grocery stores and the like will eventually give up on chargers. Most people coming to the mall are locals who are charging at home so there won't be much demand. This will depend on neighborhood, in middle class and above areas nearly everyone will have their charger at home and so not charge, while in poor areas landlords will be slow to install chargers so the poor will be charging in such areas for the next 50 years or so before it isn't worth it to have charging. Along highways you see truck stop type chargers every 10 miles or so, both for people driving long distances (trucks and vacation travelers), about the same spacing as gas stations today. Land is cheap so they will have plenty of charging space, and they will try to get your inside while you charge with activities. Sit down restaurants (not fast food) that are not far from those highways will also have chargers to attract travelers to enjoy a nice meal while they charge, but they will be limited to customers only (or maybe high prices for the charge with a discount for food you eat inside making it a good deal only if you eat there). Rural towns of 10k to 200k people will look like a highway regardless of location, since they need to provide options for farmers coming there for shopping who need a charge to get back home. Large cities than more than one million people will have few chargers on the edges (where truck stops currently are), but once you get inside the city there will be no public chargers even on highways. Land is too expensive to waste on chargers for the few people who will use it. (there will be semi-public chargers where trucking companies open their private truck stop/maintenance facility to independent truckers)
natch 3y ago
Many cars charge more slowly than Teslas, so Tesla will charge them based on time spent, not just power. This aligns the incentives to allow people who foolishly choose to buy inefficient car brands help fund the further buildout of the network. Because if this didn’t happen, the cars that charge fast (Tesla, Lucid, Rivian for example) would be waiting for the slow cars like VW IDs (if VW ever gets on board). That would not be ideal.
clouddrover 3y ago
> I wonder what kind of de-optimizations non Tesla makers are signing up for when their hardware gets used on Tesla owned charging infrastructure? Tesla's V4 chargers currently suck for 800 volt cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 It's not a secret plan, it's just bad charger implementation. If Tesla doesn't improve the V4 charger then people will go to other charging networks with better charger hardware (like Aplitronic or Kempower chargers).

by adolph 3y ago

earthboundkid 3y ago

lol, Elon is totally that petty, isn’t he?

ggreer 3y ago

I doubt there will be any noticeable difference. NACS's communication protocol is the same as CCS, and adapters exist in both directions. NACS's plug is smaller because the primary pins support both AC and DC. CCS uses separate pins for AC and DC. Also NACS locks the cable on the car side while CCS locks on both sides. That means with CCS, a malfunctioning cable can strand your car. The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase, but neither does CCS1, which is the version of the CCS standard used in North America and Japan (where household three-phase is rare). Europe uses CCS2, which is an even larger connector than CCS1 (due to the extra pin needed for three-phase).

caf 3y ago
Two extra pins. Apart from control pins, Type 1 and NACS have live, neutral and ground. Type 2 has phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, neutral and ground.
kllrnohj 3y ago
> The main downside of NACS is that it doesn't support three-phase The other current downside is it doesn't support up to 1,000V like CCS does, which matters for the currently deployed 800v EVs out there. There's a revision to NACS to support this but it's not currently in the wild yet afaik. That's the next generation of superchargers
- kccqzy 3y ago
  I believe the revision you are talking about already exists. See page 13 onwards of https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/North-American-Charging-Standard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666 https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  I think the 1000V support predates the full NACS release.
ben1040 3y ago
> Also NACS locks the cable on the car side while CCS locks on both sides. That means with CCS, a malfunctioning cable can strand your car. I'm just surprised they didn't consider when designing the standard that they're putting a critical moving part on the component most subject to handling and damage. Public charging connectors get just beat up from constant handling from lots of different people, many of whom couldn't care less about the next person to use it.
- ggreer 3y ago
  Yes, CCS is the worst of the charging standards and Americans are fortunate that the government didn’t mandate it. Thanks to EU legislation, Europeans are now stuck with a comically huge connector that can leave them stranded if they get an unlucky cable. It’s the cookie banner of charging standards.
adolph 3y ago
A communication protocol is different from what is being communicated and what extensions might be implemented or discovered for the purpose of fingerprinting vehicles or models of vehicles. For example, a robust PKI might make car theft just a bit harder. Or maybe if you farm kiwis you won't be able to charge your car anymore. ISO 15118 outlines an ecosystem of digital certificates that need to be in place for Plug & Charge to work. This is where public key infrastructures (PKIs) come into play. A PKI is a tree-like, hierarchical structure of trusted third parties called certificate authorities (CAs). These CAs manage the creation, storage, distribution, and revocation of digital certificates. https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/basics-of-plug-and-charge https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/basics-of-plug-and-charge

caf 3y ago

The owner of the charging station has no interest in cars taking up a charging space for any longer than they need to.

bluGill 3y ago
The big money is inside sales so they don't care how lolong park so long as you don't leave
- masklinn 3y ago
  If chargers were set up like gas stations maybe but lots of them are not. There are no inside sales if the charger is next to a hotel, I’m not checking in. The inside sales are also a lot more limited when I have to charge every 2 hours or so, god knows I have poor self control but not so much I’m buying overpriced snacks every time.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Where I live gas stations are starting to install chargers. What the future looks like is a guess and thus nobody knows, but the following is my guess: I expect hotels will limit their chargers to guests only (and likely move to slower/cheaper level2 chargers in all parking spaces). They want their guests arriving by cars to have a full charge in the morning, but they also want the discount from the power company that comes from not running high draw level3 chargers. They can probably get other discounts from the power company by limiting charging hours somehow. I expect malls, grocery stores and the like will eventually give up on chargers. Most people coming to the mall are locals who are charging at home so there won't be much demand. This will depend on neighborhood, in middle class and above areas nearly everyone will have their charger at home and so not charge, while in poor areas landlords will be slow to install chargers so the poor will be charging in such areas for the next 50 years or so before it isn't worth it to have charging. Along highways you see truck stop type chargers every 10 miles or so, both for people driving long distances (trucks and vacation travelers), about the same spacing as gas stations today. Land is cheap so they will have plenty of charging space, and they will try to get your inside while you charge with activities. Sit down restaurants (not fast food) that are not far from those highways will also have chargers to attract travelers to enjoy a nice meal while they charge, but they will be limited to customers only (or maybe high prices for the charge with a discount for food you eat inside making it a good deal only if you eat there). Rural towns of 10k to 200k people will look like a highway regardless of location, since they need to provide options for farmers coming there for shopping who need a charge to get back home. Large cities than more than one million people will have few chargers on the edges (where truck stops currently are), but once you get inside the city there will be no public chargers even on highways. Land is too expensive to waste on chargers for the few people who will use it. (there will be semi-public chargers where trucking companies open their private truck stop/maintenance facility to independent truckers)

natch 3y ago

Many cars charge more slowly than Teslas, so Tesla will charge them based on time spent, not just power. This aligns the incentives to allow people who foolishly choose to buy inefficient car brands help fund the further buildout of the network. Because if this didn’t happen, the cars that charge fast (Tesla, Lucid, Rivian for example) would be waiting for the slow cars like VW IDs (if VW ever gets on board). That would not be ideal.

clouddrover 3y ago

> I wonder what kind of de-optimizations non Tesla makers are signing up for when their hardware gets used on Tesla owned charging infrastructure? Tesla's V4 chargers currently suck for 800 volt cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8 It's not a secret plan, it's just bad charger implementation. If Tesla doesn't improve the V4 charger then people will go to other charging networks with better charger hardware (like Aplitronic or Kempower chargers).