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United Airlines plans to board passengers with window seats first
- brandonmenc 3y agoI pick aisle seats, check my bags, and wait until the last possible second to get on the plane. So nothing will change for me. But I still think this is a dumb idea.
- mdhen 3y agoYeah this what i do if i don't need to use the overhead bins. Either checking luggage or only bringing a backpack
- silisili 3y agoSame. I always wondered why people fight to sit first, sitting on a plane is torture. I'd get on right as the plane door is closing if I had my way. Apparently it's because people fight over the bins? I've never used one, seems like a hassle. Every flight I've ever taken has offered to gate check my stuff, for free.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoThe bins are really good if a) you're traveling for a short time such that you only need a carry on size bag, and b) you can sit towards the front so that you can immediately get off the plane with your bag. Otherwise, meh. You do get guaranteed your bag won't get lost, but that's a pretty rare occurrence in my experience.
- raisedbyninjas 3y agoI've had checked items stolen, bags lost and destroyed and only fly about once a year. Carry-ons only for me.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoThat's.. really unlucky. I fly once or twice a year, and the last time I had a bag lost was probably 10 years ago. I've never had stuff stolen or destroyed. I'm obviously not saying that it never happens, but to have the problems you've had is definitely far from the norm.
- gnicholas 3y agoThe problem is that they are still boarding basic economy last, and those people are likely to be in middle seats. So people who boarded aisle seats ahead of them will have to get up and block the aisle to let them in. If they found a way to board the middle seats from back to front, that would make things better, but there's no way to order folks like that within a single group.
- Simulacra 3y agoI have never forgotten the time United Airlines allowed a man to be beaten, because he wouldn't give up his seat that he paid for. It doesn't matter what they do, I will never fly United.
- fallinghawks 3y agoI'd appreciate it more if they could get people to stop clustering around the entrance to the line to the skybridge. I always end up thinking I'm standing in line when I'm actually behind someone in boarding group Z who's hovering there so they can be first in their group.
- ttymck 3y ago> United said that it's shown to save up to two minutes of boarding time. Incredible.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- CoastalCoder 3y agoI can't tell if that's sincere or sarcastic.
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago5,000 flights a day, 3 flight attendants = ~ 500 hours/day in flight attendant pay saved (context: flight attendants are recently getting or fighting for boarding pay)
- thsksbd 3y agoBut if all the minutes don't add up to an empty slot in the airport between its operating times, then it's for naught.
- xyzelement 3y agoLet's say a gate handles 2 flights an hour and operates for 18 hours a day (last flight 11pm, first flight 5am). That's a gate capacity of 36 flights per day. Saving 2 mins per flight frees up an hour of gate time daily. That's enough to squeeze in two more flights into that gate. If United is operating 10 gates at an airport, that's room for 20 more flights a day. Now I don't know whether gate capacity is the main bottleneck but I do know "waiting for a gate" is a common problem after landing, so it must be an issue to some degree.
- ttymck 3y ago_up to_ 2 minutes. No mention of the actual distribution, so I'm willing to bet it will most often be 0 improvement, or an actual net negative, when you get a confused family or otherwise indignant group wondering why they can't board together.
- Scalene2 3y agoCGP Grey produced an excellent video about plane boarding methods, the fastest isn't obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo
- randycupertino 3y agoTLDW? So what method was the fastest?
- sublinear 3y agoNone of them. The ultimate suggestion of the "steffen modified" is not much better than random. Neither is window-middle-aisle. For CGPGrey it's just nerding out for the sake of it. For the airlines it's publicity.
- kmeisthax 3y agoIf you don't care about practicality, take all the even rows of seats, board the left window seats first, then the middle, then the aisles, then the right window, middle, and aisle, then the same thing again with the odd rows of seats. (Steffen Modified) If you're really dead set on perfection, force every one of those groups of people to board back-to-front, effectively creating a separate boarding group for each seat. (Steffen Perfect) If you live on Planet Earth, don't assign seats and don't have boarding groups. Let people sit whenever and wherever they want. (Random) It turns out most people will naturally do the things that make boarding quick anyway and literally all organized boarding is a conspiracy to make boarding take longer so airlines can sell you faster boarding.
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago> Let people sit whenever and wherever they want That was done at some point by Ryanair or EasyJet in Europe. Three were riots, blood and tears and they got back to numbered seats
- cyberge99 3y ago
- codetrotter 3y agoSee also https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo by CGP Grey
- celeritascelery 3y agoThere is an even better method to board a plane https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo
- labcomputer 3y agoWell, not in practice. The problem is that that's based on a computer simulation which assumes that people store their carry-on in a bin near their seat (instead of the actual behavior in practice, which is to store it in the first empty bin they encounter while boarding the plane).
- jacquesm 3y agoI've done 100's of flights and have never encountered this.
- temp_praneshp 3y agoI have done 50s of flights and encountered it about quite often (at least 50% of the flights I have been on, likely close to 100%). Esp in the second half of boarding, people just want to be safe not sorry.
- jacquesm 3y agoInteresting. I wouldn't want my bag out of reach and out of sight (it has my laptop in it) and as a rule people seem to use the bin closest to them. On the plus side, since COVID I haven't had to fly at all and that saves a ton of time and irritation. (Most of my flights in recent years have been within the EU, before that a very large number between the US and Europe and Canada and Europe, rarely within the US domestically).
- silisili 3y agoI saw it on a couple flights, not most. It's a train wreck. The first people take the first bins, but sit in the back. Then people getting on who sit in the front have to walk back, find a bin, then walk back forward against the traffic. It's about as much of a clusterf as you'd imagine. I don't know why FA's don't watch and ban the practice...
- hindsightbias 3y agoIsle seaters == baggage check I give it til after the holiday season.
- wilg 3y agoI always assumed the bottleneck was readying the plane so it doesn’t really matter how quickly you board. And people would prefer to not sit on the plane waiting around. I have no idea if this is true.
- Symbiote 3y agoEuropean budget airline staff get rather annoyed if people are messing about and slowing down boarding. There's only minimal cleaning during the day. Mostly just collecting litter and putting magazines etc back in their place. Ryanair planes don't even have a seat pocket; the safety card is a large sticker on the back of the seat in front. After an inbound flight, boarding can start just a few minutes later.
- jrockway 3y agoThey can replace the in-flight magazine with a dustpan and some wet wipes and skip cleaning entirely. Do it once a year at the C check or whatever. Uptime!
- xmprt 3y agoThere are some things that you can only do once everyone has boarded and skipping steps in the checklist is a recipe for disaster.
- tiffanyh 3y agoPriority Boarding This always fails because half the plane consists of business travelers with priority boarding due to status. This is something that Southwest got right by not having assigned seats. And as a result, they turn planes faster than any other airline. https://www.cnbc.com/id/43768488 https://www.cnbc.com/id/43768488
- wenc 3y agoI really dislike Southwest's boarding system. I set a check in timer and I still get group C -- after being bit twice, I decided to never fly Southwest again. SWA veterans tell me I need to be A-list but it's a chicken and egg scenario. I dislike them so much that I will never fly them frequently enough to get A-list, and without A-list I will continue to dislke them. So I just never fly Southwest.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoThat's true, but really group C is almost always fine anyways. I've only rarely been unable to snag a window seat (my preference) even in C group. But you are definitely right that you have to check in the millisecond it becomes available to get into B. A is just impossible to get unless you pay $15 for early bird check in (which I only do if it's an early flight or I know I'll be busy during check in time, since early bird is also automatic).
- asynchronous 3y agoI absolutely hate flying southwest and would pay double to not have to deal with that chaos.
- randycupertino 3y agoThis is how I feel about WOW Airlines. No amount of savings is worth that experience. I did WOW long-haul SF to Frankfurt. Never again! One side of my seat didn't even have an arm rest.
- 3y ago
- fsckboy 3y agothis is going to be something of a disaster :) People travel together and like to sit next to each other, it's just going to be so confusing for some parties, and so many people are going to try to cheat, mayhem. planes should switch to pods, then we get loaded in bulk. Everybody gets strapped in before the plane even gets there, then load us all up with a forklift!
- remram 3y agoThat sounds much more expensive operationally, to save minutes of aircraft downtime.
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoIf you are booked with someone else, you both get the earliest of the two boarding groups. Enough people fly alone that this still saves some time I guess
- labcomputer 3y agoPlus, carry-on luggage: The problem in practice with boarding people in back first is that: 1. They tend to put their carry-on in the first bin they find in the front of the airplane. So people sitting in the front have to put theirs in the back. This is a disaster later in the boarding process because there isn't enough room for people to circulate back up to the front after they stow their carry-on. 2. Frequent fliers and people who purchased premium economy seats expect to be able to bring a carry-on. They tend to sit in the front the plane, so the problem for #1 affects them more. This is relevant to United's new policy because boarding people with windows in the back board before people with aisles in the front.
- xmprt 3y ago> They tend to put their carry-on in the first bin they find in the front of the airplane I personally haven't noticed this and I don't think it's very common. I thought that most people preferred to have their carry on in the bin closest to their seat in case they need to pull something out mid flight.
- RheingoldRiver 3y agoWas a bit confused about "WILMA" because it seems like the L and M are backwards, but that's correct, [0] I guess someone decided this sounds nicer than WIMLA, which would make more sense. [0] https://aircraftmaintenancestands.com/blog/boarding-an-airplane/ https://aircraftmaintenancestands.com/blog/boarding-an-airpl...
- adrianmonk 3y agoIt's (Wi)ndow, (M)iddle, (A)isle, right? L is just filler that doesn't stand for anything, so it doesn't matter where it is in the order.
- RheingoldRiver 3y agoThere's an "L" in `Middle`, I figured it's supposed to be from that
- nicoburns 3y agoSomething I found discovered recently which I found quite amazing in light of how long it typically takes to board a plane: The target time for an emergency evacuation is 90 seconds. And the manufacturers must demonstrate that this is possible in order for the aircraft to get certification.
- userbinator 3y agoIt's the difference between everyone wanting to get out ASAP, probably because they fear for their lives, and "the plane's not going anywhere even if I take a few more seconds".
- templaedhel 3y agoWell to be fair a lot of the boarding time is tied up in people struggling to get luggage into overhead bins, and then eventually fully running out of space and having to swim upstream after they put their bag behind them.
- xyzelement 3y agoThe passengers aren't all filing out the one door at the front in that situation. I'd say an average jet has at least 6 emergency exists (2 in the front, 2 in the exit row, and 2 in the rear) so nobody is more than a couple of rows from an exit in that situation, plus they are moving their ass and they are not dealing with luggage.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
- nwellinghoff 3y agoOkie good job. Now next step, board the plane back to front!
- luigi23 3y agothis will give priority to economy class
- slater 3y agoand we can't have that! how will the plebs get to see the rich folk sipping champagne in first class?
- sublinear 3y agoFirst class doesn't care about the plebs
- sublinear 3y agoI feel like first class passengers would strongly prefer to be last in and first out. Less hassle is the premium experience. Who wouldn't rather relax in a comfortable lounge and board when the plane is ready for them and then be first to get off the flight and get on with things? Economy should be first in and last out. More hassle and waiting.
- phinnaeus 3y agoFirst class seats are comfy and often you'll get a drink while sitting there watching everyone else board. First off in the end as well. If you prefer to board last, no worries you can do that and there will still be plenty of room for your carry-on. First class means flexibility.
- nwellinghoff 3y agoI think we some creative marketing this could be changed. People is 1st class hate having to watch everyone go by them. Anyway, who cares. If the end result is faster boarding and more reliable service it should be done.
- demondemidi 3y agoi could have sworn someone did a study that showed random boarding was the best algorithm despite intuition.
- resters 3y agoI think the most sensible way to do it would be to let people self-select into fast boarders and slow borders, let the fast ones get on first and take their seats, then give the slow boarders as much time as they need.
- userbinator 3y agoThat might naturally tend towards window seaters being the "fast boarders", as those taking a place at the aisle probably don't want window-seaters having to squeeze past them, and vice-versa.
- resters 3y agoTrue, the choice of slow or fast could dictate aisle/middle/window position, or the boarding groups could be set up as follows: group 1) fast window seaters group 2) fast middle seaters in rows with the window in group 1 group 3) fast aisle seaters with the other seats already boarded in groups 1 or 2 group 4) slow window seaters group 5) everyone else
- acyou 3y agoFinally... only took like 60 years to figure that one out. Need to couple it with a collective financial incentive for fast turns.
- spike021 3y agoANA does this (source: on an ANA flight right now). Thought that was a very smart idea. And then I realized I no longer being on the window for long haul flights.
- asynchronous 3y agoClearly no one on HN has watched the Mythbusters episode where they tested exactly this: plane boarding. And this was indeed the most efficient method.
- kevinventullo 3y agoIf the airlines stopped charging to check luggage, 99% of the problems with boarding would go away.
- Symbiote 3y agoOr charge for both. https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/categories/12489112419089-Bag-Rules https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/categories/12489112419089-...
- kube-system 3y agoSouthwest gives everyone two checked bags for free, and still, most bring carry-ons. People are too afraid of losing their luggage.
- ryandrake 3y agoYes. Charge $50 per carry-on and make checked baggage free, and boom, you'll double the onboarding speed. Too many people dragging armfuls of carry-on baggage onto the plane, struggling to heft them into the overhead bins, and fighting for space.
- aidenn0 3y agoThat would help, but a lot of people have such a distaste for checking luggage, even when free (And TBF to them, it can easily add an hour to your trip), that I don't know it would completely solve the problem.
- bigstrat2003 3y agoI fly Southwest specifically because they don't charge to check bags (seriously, fuck this nonsense of charging for basic functionality). I find that it's actually very rare that the overhead bin space fills up, even on completely full flights. I think that the GP is spot on that contention for the bins wouldn't be nearly as bad if checking bags was free (which again, it bloody well should be even if it didn't help the bin situation).
- alexjplant 3y ago
- browningstreet 3y agoIt’s always easy boarding in first class. /s ..but not really.
- todd3834 3y agoThe only thing people care about is room for their carry on. Otherwise put me on last, first or in the middle I don’t care
- seattle_spring 3y agoI do not understand why airlines don't seem to get this. Make sure I have a reserved overhead spot (not the same thing as checked luggage) and I'll board in any order you want me to, including being dead last.
- MostlyStable 3y agoI recently flew Alaska, and if I had had a carry on bag that needed to go in overhead, I would have been _pissed_. They told us that the last two groups needed to gate check their bags. I assumed this was because they ran out of space. NOPE. When I got on there was still a _ton_ of space in the overhead. Almost definitely enough for all the remaining passengers who they had had gate check. Like I said, this didn't affect me, but I had second hand anger. And I can't even think what the point was of it. I have to imagine that they have just gotten used to there not being enough space and they didn't bother checking if it was the case on this flight.
- rootsudo 3y agoHeh, no that’s not it at all. It isn’t because “they don’t know how much free space” it’s a weight and balance issue. They monitor the weight, fuel and depending on the flight load they rather gate check luggage to reduce it because usually later groups for Alaska board the back. The gate agent may say it’s space or whatnot, but that is a fib because imagine them trying to explain “weight and balance” to people all eager to get on a plane that can’t even leave until the door closes. Comical.
- rlpb 3y agoHow does moving bags from overhead lockers to the hold reduce the weight? Or are you claiming that doing so moves the center of mass in a way that makes some practical difference?
- Jailbird 3y agoThe article mentions they only plan to do this starting at group 4... So that's 1. All pre boarding (military, families with small children, wheelchairs, etc) 2. Global services 3. Group 1 4. Group 2 5. Group 3 6. Group 4 7. Group 5 I also think Group 2 often seems to me to be the most populous one... that may just be my experience. I guess now I can see why they'd only save 2 minutes. Edit: formatting, formatting and more formatting
- jmspring 3y agoGroup 2 usually includes those that have the United Chase card, anyone with gold status, etc. I agree it's quite populous.
- INGSOCIALITE 3y agoAt this point in time, “pre boarding” (military, babies, elderly, “10k and platinum members” , global elite, etc) is about 50% of the airplane And that’s not even group 1
- jeo123 3y ago[flagged]
- blahbah 3y agoIf i were a US citizen and you ran for president and the whole political system wasn't locked so only candidates who serve the richest people can have the slightest chance of winning primaries and even if they could win they probably would get smeared and maybe assassinated in their first term, then i would totally vote for you.
- DueDilligence 3y ago[dead]
- 121789 3y agoIt’s only 10k and global services in pre boarding. And it’s gotten a lot shorter lately because I think everyone’s covid status extensions ran out (mine did). Group 2 is much longer now
- ch13_ 3y agoLooked through the comments from anyone with experience as a cabin crew, but didn't find one.
- rkho 3y agoI flew ZipAir earlier this year and I liked how they handled boarding. Their "full flat" (the Business section) boards at any time because the seats are to the left as you enter the plane, but the rest of the cabin begins boarding from the rear rows first in groups of something like ten or twenty rows at a time.
- rootsudo 3y agoThat’s normal for most airlines that have a business / first class 3 E.g. full service airlines . The USA legacy ones are forgoing it to save jetbridge cost.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y agoAs long as I get on the flight, doesn't matter if I'm waiting at the gate or waiting in the plane. I dont care if my carry-on gets checked under the plane, I'll keep my expensive stuff under the seat in front of me in a personal. It really boggles my mind that people get upset about airline travel. You're paying a pittance to travel thousands of miles in a day, and you get free snacks and tv. Oh you're uncomfortable? Less comfortable than taking a car, bus or train that will take ten times as long and is much more likely to crash, and probably costs more? Cool cool cool. Modern life is so hard.
- SkyMarshal 3y agoOblig Lewis CK on flying :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4
- iaseiadit 3y agoNever understood the mad rush to be the first person crammed into a stuffy metal tube where you’ll be stuck for the next several hours.
- eekwatersrising 3y agoPillows blankets and overhead space run out for the losers at the end.
- recursive 3y agoI didn't even know there were pillows and blankets. I rarely use the overhead space. I've never seen it run out, and I rarely fly on flights that aren't maxed.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y agoI actually count on them to run out of overhead space. It's a free checked bag! Albeit a small one... I'd just rather not have to deal with trying to cram my carry on into an overhead, and then the psychotic rush to grab it and run down the aisle as people behind you try to trample you when leaving. Nobody has any chill anymore.
- davidw 3y agoAccording to recent queuing theory research using a supercomputer, scientists have discovered that the ideal loading strategy is to get loaded at the airport bar.
- penguin_booze 3y agoFor your reference, the optimal boarding sequence is demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxlZC8BZJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxlZC8BZJ4.
- keepamovin 3y agoUsername checks out. Antarctica airport let’s go!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- johnfn 3y agoI probably should have been suspicious by the time I hit "supercomputer" but for some reason I kept on going.
- jasonboyd 3y agoAgreed. But I still laughed
- notbeuller 3y agoI would like to once again ask people to consider the abundant possibilities inherent in just not going anywhere.
- SkyMarshal 3y agoPretty good vid showing how different boarding options work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo
- givemeethekeys 3y agoWhy not load the plane by row, back to front?
- bradly 3y agoI remember a Southwest flight to San Jose a few years ago that deboarded in both the front and back of the plane at the same time. It was great. It never happened again.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cjboco 3y agoBoarding, happens all the time in Long Beach, CA. Haven’t seen it deboard that way though.
- Brajeshwar 3y agoAh! Now I remember one more advantage of smaller kids. “Can I go now, I have kids.” I winked at my younger one to start the crying routine. There we go, we can board whenever we want. This has worked pretty must almost all the time. ;-)
- djha-skin 3y agoObligatory reference to CGP Grey's excellent treatment of the topic (video): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo And he shows that window middle aisle saves a little bit of time, but not much.
- andreygrehov 3y agoBack to front is the only reasonable way to board faster. The rest is all bs.
- m463 3y agoBut they price discriminate so that people pay more to be in the front. If the people in the front get there and have no overhead storage space, there will be a lot of hard feelings.
- gnicholas 3y agoThey don't let people put bags in the first class area unless they're in first class. I think it's more about making people feel special. But honestly, isn't it special to be the people who spend the least amount of time crammed into a tin can?
- m463 3y agoWhat they seem to be doing is monetizing all the seats from front to back. So sitting forward in "coach" with an assigned seat and more legroom is incrementally more expensive than further back. So full flights will fill the overhead bins long before everyone has boarded.
- gnicholas 3y agoTrue. But you can still board the special people last if you don't let plebes (I count myself among them) to put bags in their zone. Economy Plus folks can't bring bags at all (just one personal item), IIRC.
- m463 3y agoI flew economy plus and I thought that too, but I could bring a bag. Either it was allowed or they weren't checking.
- avarun 3y ago
- allanrbo 3y agoMythbusters tested this https://youtu.be/ss1S3-Kv6R8?si=X33pP_wS0fC2arx- https://youtu.be/ss1S3-Kv6R8?si=X33pP_wS0fC2arx-
- teeray 3y agoWhy do airlines charge for checked luggage, but offer overhead bin space for free? The latter is clearly more convenient, but causes the majority of slowdowns with the boarding process. It seems the incentives are reversed.
- tatersolid 3y agoBecause they can charge shippers for transporting more cargo if the bottom of the plane isn’t full of checked bags. https://thepointsking.com/blog/passenger-planes-ship-freight-cargo/ https://thepointsking.com/blog/passenger-planes-ship-freight...