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Thanks to Ethereum (and specially now that there are L2s which have cheaper tx costs) I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of colla

Thanks to Ethereum (and specially now that there are L2s which have cheaper tx costs) I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees". In Argentina if someone works for you more than 15/20 hours in a given month you are legally obliged to hire them for, at least, 3 months. The legislation doesn't fit in tons of cases, and led the country to over 35% of working people outside the legal framework. Crypto gives people living in dysfunctional democracies a chance to participate in the global economy, something that people living in Europe or North America cannot comprehend. And don't even get me started on why ownership of your money is important but if you are willing to read take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corralito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corralito

m_0x 3y ago
Are you admitting a crime (tax evasion)?
alexgartrell 3y ago
Even if the laws are stupid, the killer feature you are describing is called crime.
- salamanderss 3y ago
  [dead]
- jonkho 3y ago
  Yes and we need tools to route around stupidity to keep checks and balances on stupidity. Otherwise locked-in stupidity can get even more stupid and that’s how suffering occur at scale.
  - Arainach 3y ago
    If you don't like the law, lobby politicians to change it. You don't get to decide that speed limits are stupid and go 100. You don't get to decide that taxes are stupid and not pay them. You don't get to decide that rules against murder are stupid and ignore them.
    - brvsft 3y ago
      Wait, why didn't you use these examples: > You don't get to decide what to put into your body and smoke weed. You don't get to make a choice about your pregnancy and have an abortion. You don't get to not be a chattel slave in 1840.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - pton_xd 3y ago
      > If you don't like the law, lobby politicians to change it. Some laws are unjust and it's your duty as a human being with free will to disobey them.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        Drop the persecution complex. You're being asked to pay taxes, not commit genocide.
        vaxintar 3y ago
        If I pay taxes I can't pay wages.
        Arainach 3y ago
        If you can't afford to: * pay a living wage * pay your taxes * comply with health, safety, and employment regulations * comply with all the other laws (this is a crypto thread, so that includes weapons laws, securities laws, international sanctions, and so many more) Then you don't have a valid business. You have no inherent right to run whatever business you think you want to. Also, to your immediate claim, I do not believe you.
        vaxintar 3y ago
        What I can't afford is to deal with a regressive tax legislation [], while trying to get US currency in the black market [2] to save and pay for imported goods and without a line of credit because the rate is ~190% and inflation ~130% [3]. I do pay my taxes, also think high worth individuals should be subject of taxation, but your rigid framework leaves out many people that use crypto as their only way to get paid and/or save money because traditional banking system is broken in their countries. 1. 2. https://brazilian.report/liveblog/latam/2023/10/10/dollar-1000-pesos-argentina-black-market/ https://brazilian.report/liveblog/latam/2023/10/10/dollar-10... 3. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-12/argentina-central-bank-hikes-rate-to-133-after-inflation-data https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-12/argentina...
UncleMeat 3y ago
This really is the key thing. Crypto allows for the evasion of laws. That's its key contribution. In authoritarian states this is probably a net good. In the rest of the world this is a harm. "The killer app for this technology is crime."
- gloosx 3y ago
  Crypto allows evasion of banks for a direct money transfer, this is key thing. The laws are funny in that area.
- ivanmontillam 3y ago
  I'm not condoning crime, but do you recognize that changing laws in an authoritarian state is next to impossible right? Lives lost in Venezuela doing a serious attempt at changing. Do you prefer blood shed on streets?
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    I think that allowing people to protect themselves from authoritarian governments is often a good thing. I also think it is important to understand that if this is the killer app then we need to be honest about what it is and how that affects people in states that are more just. The benefits to those suffering in Venezuela cannot be separated from the harms done to people in non-authoritarian states.
    - ivanmontillam 3y ago
      Tax evasion is not its killer app, but I reckon cryptocurrencies can be misused that way. Tax evasion is possible with or without mechanism. Real world example in Argentina: the way most landlords evade taxes is by charging tenants in cash. They expect you to go to their place with an envelope full of 1000's ARS banknotes. So far I've not seen rents paid in cryptocurrency, but by extension, would you say cash's killer app is tax evasion indeed?
      - dingnuts 3y ago
sydbarrett74 3y ago
You're engaging in tax evasion by misclassifying employees as IC's. Call it whatever you want, the essence doesn't change.
- vaxintar 3y ago
  Tax evasion for a business that makes less than 5k usd a year in reveneu? If you think that's a crime you are delusional about the uses of money. Crypto allow me to create a structure where people can work in an animal health control for rural parts of the Patagonia (which is around 2000000 squared kilometers, five times the size of Germany and has 1/80 its population) and provide this kind of services for free in many cases. I can now quit/leave/die and anyone can take my place to coordinate it in the same immutable structure. And the best part? The state can track all the transactions if they really want it. But I'm sure no one is going to work to find out how six veterinarians got 125 USDC in their digital wallets in July 2023.
  - sydbarrett74 3y ago
    It's not the magnitude, it's the mens rea (motive and intent).
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > If you think that's a crime you are delusional about the uses of money. If it wasn't a crime, why do you have to use cryptocurrency for it? Or is your definition of "crime" more abstract, not a literal interpretation of the law?
    - vaxintar 3y ago
      Because to hand over the money I'd need to travel 1000 KMs [1]. And if you want to know "why you don't simply transfer through a bank?" I encourage you to read the Corralito wiki. Just before the Corralito ended, there was an asymmetric pesification of bank deposits. This meant that if you had 100k USD in your account on Monday, by Friday it would be converted to 100k ARS at a rate of 4 ARS = 1 USD, effectively leaving you with just 25k USD. This event left a general feeling of discomfort regarding leaving real money (in terms of store of value) in the bank. 1. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Viedma,+R%C3%ADo+Negro+Province/Jacobacci,+San+Carlos+de+Bariloche,+R%C3%ADo+Negro/@-40.1044458,-69.8052752,7z/ https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Viedma,+R%C3%ADo+Negro+Provi...
pierat 3y ago
Really, thats your selling point? "Shitcoin allows easy fraud, destruction of employment, and subversion of laws we dont like at scale, because it's not a fiat currency" Seriously, if that's your selling point, kill it with fire and bury it in the desert. (shitcoin, not you).
- wetpaws 3y ago
  [dead]
- vaxintar 3y ago
  Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. If you associate crypto only with shitcoins maybe your twitter bubble is a bit fucked up.
llm_nerd 3y ago
>Crypto gives people living in dysfunctional democracies a chance to participate in the global economy, something that people living in Europe or North America cannot comprehend. Corruption (which tax evasion is a facet of) is how you end up with dysfunctional governments. Endemic corruption breeds corruption breeds corruption. Crypto facilitates corruption and crime, which is antagonistic if your goal is a healthy society or good governance.
gnopgnip 3y ago
>I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees" Paying in ethereum, gift cards, gold, etc doesn’t change if they are employees or reduce how much tax you owe
Aurornis 3y ago
> I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees". I'm always fascinated when people come right out and say that the primary use case of crypto is evading laws and taxes. The strangest part is that using crypto doesn't actually exempt them from the law any more than using a bank account to wire money around. There's just something about crypto that makes some people think it's a safe haven from legal oversight.
- Xelynega 3y ago
  There's just something about the "techiness" of cryptocurrencies that makes people think current financial laws don't apply to them.
freejazz 3y ago
>Thanks to Ethereum (and specially now that there are L2s which have cheaper tx costs) I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees". That's not a technical feature, that's just tax fraud
uxp8u61q 3y ago
You're evading taxes and worker protection laws. Congrats I guess? If your business model is dependent on flouting the law, then maybe it's time to rethink the business model.
- vaxintar 3y ago
  ??? The workers are the ones who can't get a job because of the "worker protection laws" you evoke, so you clearly don't understand the problems of Latin America. This structure only gives them an incentive to travel hundreds of kilometers to a ranch where a bovine died for unknown reasons, for amounts that a western european would spend in a single take-out dinner.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  > If your business model is dependent on flouting the law, then maybe it's time to rethink the business model. Or maybe it's time to rethink the law...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

m_0x 3y ago

Are you admitting a crime (tax evasion)?

alexgartrell 3y ago

Even if the laws are stupid, the killer feature you are describing is called crime.

salamanderss 3y ago
[dead]
jonkho 3y ago
Yes and we need tools to route around stupidity to keep checks and balances on stupidity. Otherwise locked-in stupidity can get even more stupid and that’s how suffering occur at scale.
- Arainach 3y ago
  If you don't like the law, lobby politicians to change it. You don't get to decide that speed limits are stupid and go 100. You don't get to decide that taxes are stupid and not pay them. You don't get to decide that rules against murder are stupid and ignore them.
  - brvsft 3y ago
    Wait, why didn't you use these examples: > You don't get to decide what to put into your body and smoke weed. You don't get to make a choice about your pregnancy and have an abortion. You don't get to not be a chattel slave in 1840.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - pton_xd 3y ago
    > If you don't like the law, lobby politicians to change it. Some laws are unjust and it's your duty as a human being with free will to disobey them.
    - Arainach 3y ago
      Drop the persecution complex. You're being asked to pay taxes, not commit genocide.
      - vaxintar 3y ago
        If I pay taxes I can't pay wages.
        Arainach 3y ago
        If you can't afford to: * pay a living wage * pay your taxes * comply with health, safety, and employment regulations * comply with all the other laws (this is a crypto thread, so that includes weapons laws, securities laws, international sanctions, and so many more) Then you don't have a valid business. You have no inherent right to run whatever business you think you want to. Also, to your immediate claim, I do not believe you.
        vaxintar 3y ago
        What I can't afford is to deal with a regressive tax legislation [], while trying to get US currency in the black market [2] to save and pay for imported goods and without a line of credit because the rate is ~190% and inflation ~130% [3]. I do pay my taxes, also think high worth individuals should be subject of taxation, but your rigid framework leaves out many people that use crypto as their only way to get paid and/or save money because traditional banking system is broken in their countries. 1. 2. https://brazilian.report/liveblog/latam/2023/10/10/dollar-1000-pesos-argentina-black-market/ https://brazilian.report/liveblog/latam/2023/10/10/dollar-10... 3. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-12/argentina-central-bank-hikes-rate-to-133-after-inflation-data https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-12/argentina...

UncleMeat 3y ago

This really is the key thing. Crypto allows for the evasion of laws. That's its key contribution. In authoritarian states this is probably a net good. In the rest of the world this is a harm. "The killer app for this technology is crime."

gloosx 3y ago
Crypto allows evasion of banks for a direct money transfer, this is key thing. The laws are funny in that area.
ivanmontillam 3y ago
I'm not condoning crime, but do you recognize that changing laws in an authoritarian state is next to impossible right? Lives lost in Venezuela doing a serious attempt at changing. Do you prefer blood shed on streets?
- UncleMeat 3y ago
  I think that allowing people to protect themselves from authoritarian governments is often a good thing. I also think it is important to understand that if this is the killer app then we need to be honest about what it is and how that affects people in states that are more just. The benefits to those suffering in Venezuela cannot be separated from the harms done to people in non-authoritarian states.
  - ivanmontillam 3y ago
    Tax evasion is not its killer app, but I reckon cryptocurrencies can be misused that way. Tax evasion is possible with or without mechanism. Real world example in Argentina: the way most landlords evade taxes is by charging tenants in cash. They expect you to go to their place with an envelope full of 1000's ARS banknotes. So far I've not seen rents paid in cryptocurrency, but by extension, would you say cash's killer app is tax evasion indeed?
    - dingnuts 3y ago

sydbarrett74 3y ago

You're engaging in tax evasion by misclassifying employees as IC's. Call it whatever you want, the essence doesn't change.

vaxintar 3y ago
Tax evasion for a business that makes less than 5k usd a year in reveneu? If you think that's a crime you are delusional about the uses of money. Crypto allow me to create a structure where people can work in an animal health control for rural parts of the Patagonia (which is around 2000000 squared kilometers, five times the size of Germany and has 1/80 its population) and provide this kind of services for free in many cases. I can now quit/leave/die and anyone can take my place to coordinate it in the same immutable structure. And the best part? The state can track all the transactions if they really want it. But I'm sure no one is going to work to find out how six veterinarians got 125 USDC in their digital wallets in July 2023.
- sydbarrett74 3y ago
  It's not the magnitude, it's the mens rea (motive and intent).
- Aurornis 3y ago
  > If you think that's a crime you are delusional about the uses of money. If it wasn't a crime, why do you have to use cryptocurrency for it? Or is your definition of "crime" more abstract, not a literal interpretation of the law?
  - vaxintar 3y ago
    Because to hand over the money I'd need to travel 1000 KMs [1]. And if you want to know "why you don't simply transfer through a bank?" I encourage you to read the Corralito wiki. Just before the Corralito ended, there was an asymmetric pesification of bank deposits. This meant that if you had 100k USD in your account on Monday, by Friday it would be converted to 100k ARS at a rate of 4 ARS = 1 USD, effectively leaving you with just 25k USD. This event left a general feeling of discomfort regarding leaving real money (in terms of store of value) in the bank. 1. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Viedma,+R%C3%ADo+Negro+Province/Jacobacci,+San+Carlos+de+Bariloche,+R%C3%ADo+Negro/@-40.1044458,-69.8052752,7z/ https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Viedma,+R%C3%ADo+Negro+Provi...

pierat 3y ago

Really, thats your selling point? "Shitcoin allows easy fraud, destruction of employment, and subversion of laws we dont like at scale, because it's not a fiat currency" Seriously, if that's your selling point, kill it with fire and bury it in the desert. (shitcoin, not you).

wetpaws 3y ago
[dead]
vaxintar 3y ago
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. If you associate crypto only with shitcoins maybe your twitter bubble is a bit fucked up.

llm_nerd 3y ago

>Crypto gives people living in dysfunctional democracies a chance to participate in the global economy, something that people living in Europe or North America cannot comprehend. Corruption (which tax evasion is a facet of) is how you end up with dysfunctional governments. Endemic corruption breeds corruption breeds corruption. Crypto facilitates corruption and crime, which is antagonistic if your goal is a healthy society or good governance.

gnopgnip 3y ago

>I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees" Paying in ethereum, gift cards, gold, etc doesn’t change if they are employees or reduce how much tax you owe

Aurornis 3y ago

> I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees". I'm always fascinated when people come right out and say that the primary use case of crypto is evading laws and taxes. The strangest part is that using crypto doesn't actually exempt them from the law any more than using a bank account to wire money around. There's just something about crypto that makes some people think it's a safe haven from legal oversight.

Xelynega 3y ago
There's just something about the "techiness" of cryptocurrencies that makes people think current financial laws don't apply to them.

freejazz 3y ago

>Thanks to Ethereum (and specially now that there are L2s which have cheaper tx costs) I can distribute revenue from my business between different types of collaborators, without incurring in paying 120% in taxes for having "employees". That's not a technical feature, that's just tax fraud

uxp8u61q 3y ago

You're evading taxes and worker protection laws. Congrats I guess? If your business model is dependent on flouting the law, then maybe it's time to rethink the business model.

vaxintar 3y ago
??? The workers are the ones who can't get a job because of the "worker protection laws" you evoke, so you clearly don't understand the problems of Latin America. This structure only gives them an incentive to travel hundreds of kilometers to a ranch where a bovine died for unknown reasons, for amounts that a western european would spend in a single take-out dinner.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
> If your business model is dependent on flouting the law, then maybe it's time to rethink the business model. Or maybe it's time to rethink the law...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]