4 ms·

> But then how is it possible to say "Hamas is the reason there is no Palestinian state"? The reason there is no Palestinian state is that Israel has done anyt

> But then how is it possible to say "Hamas is the reason there is no Palestinian state"? The reason there is no Palestinian state is that Israel has done anything possible to prevent its creation, including supporting terrorists to then point to as the reason the Palestinian state cannot be allowed. That's a very good and indeed sad point. I think we were very close to a Palestinian state in the 90s. The stars aligned and both sides had leaders with enough sway to pull that off. The Likud was beaten and then Hamas started blowing up things. That's a moment in time I'm talking about when I'm blaming Hamas for the lack of Palestinian state. That moment in time is gone. Even if the Hamas vanished tomorrow there are no longer leaders on either side who are willing/able to move that dream forward. Bibi essentially destroyed that potential and also set into the minds of Israelis that there's no partner for peace. Removing the Hamas is one step, removing the Likud is another. Unfortunately, even both of these steps won't be enough to restart that process.

throw310822 3y ago
I don't think it's a matter of leaders on either side. Especially not on the Palestinian side. In the end, the only voice that has any influence in the West is that of Israel. Palestinians are ignored or blamed. Even the fact that the major human rights organisations agree that Israel is practicing apartheid (an accusation that is one of the gravest) has simply failed to produce a dent in the support of Western countries for Israel's government. I think Israelis really need to ask themselves if they're sincere in their support for the creation of a Palestinian state. Which entails removing settlements, establishing and respecting an international border, and accepting that they will have to give up land and never, ever, expand Israel by another square centimetre. I saw the huge protests against Netanyahu in the last months- they have been saluted in the West as the proof of the civil conscience of democratic Israelis. However, I have not seen such huge protests, not even much smaller ones, to stop what human rights organisations call apartheid- which is incommensurably worse than a law to limit the powers of the Supreme Court. What is a Supreme Court that allows apartheid worth anyway?
- invalidname 3y ago
  > I don't think it's a matter of leaders on either side. Especially not on the Palestinian side. Leaders make peace agreements. They also enforce them by controlling their own people. Peace doesn't spontaneously happen without two people signing an accord. In the past it was Rabin and Arafat. Now Abbas is too weak and so is the liberal wing in Israel. There's no one with the power or motivation to move in that direction. > In the end, the only voice that has any influence in the West is that of Israel. Palestinians are ignored or blamed. This is very selective and ignores cases where the UK and USA conspired against Israel in the 50s. It ignores the media coverage in Europe which is often anti-Israeli, specifically the BBC is very pro-Palestinian. It also ignores the mirror image in Arab countries which shows a very biased anti-Israel view of the situation. Israel is held to a higher standard than the Palestinians. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, Israel is a state not a terrorist organization. But people often forget that. There are still laws and standards. E.g. a couple of years ago a terrorist tried to stab a soldier and was shot. He was lying down neutralized and a soldier walked up to him and shot him. That soldier went to jail for killing a terrorist. People were upset about that, but it shows there's justice. Even a terrorist deserves justice. Israel doesn't live up to that standard every time, but it does the right thing in most cases. > I think Israelis really need to ask themselves if they're sincere in their support for the creation of a Palestinian state. Many want a Palestinian state and many don't. It's a struggle that has been tearing the Israeli society from within. A long running Palestinian joke is that if they would leave Israel alone the Jews will kill one another in a week. > Which entails removing settlements, establishing and respecting an international border Israel did that in the past when it signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. It removed settlements from Gaza and left that area. > never, ever, expand Israel by another square centimetre. Israel got these extra territories as a result of a pending attack. It didn't explicitly go out to try and expand its borders and never tried to do that. There are encroaching settlements which I agree are very bad, but they are on top of land that's already occupied. > to stop what human rights organisations call apartheid Those happened in the 90s and 80s. They were huge and birthed major movements. These protests led to the Oslo accord. The failure of that (again due in large part to the Hamas) essentially decimated these movements and most of the country now considers this as bunk. "We tried peace, we tried giving them a country and they blew up busses and coffee shops". I think that's a false narrative as the Palestinians are not a single entity. But it's very hard to make that case today. Especially now. After the Hamas murdered and kidnapped women and children people were celebrating in the streets of Gaza. These pictures (as well as the horrible stuff on social networks) reached the Israeli public. This has brought a level of rage that unfortunately isn't limited only to the Hamas. > What is a Supreme Court that allows apartheid worth anyway? I actually agree with that partially, but it would probably be MUCH worse if it weren't for that court.

throw310822 3y ago

I don't think it's a matter of leaders on either side. Especially not on the Palestinian side. In the end, the only voice that has any influence in the West is that of Israel. Palestinians are ignored or blamed. Even the fact that the major human rights organisations agree that Israel is practicing apartheid (an accusation that is one of the gravest) has simply failed to produce a dent in the support of Western countries for Israel's government. I think Israelis really need to ask themselves if they're sincere in their support for the creation of a Palestinian state. Which entails removing settlements, establishing and respecting an international border, and accepting that they will have to give up land and never, ever, expand Israel by another square centimetre. I saw the huge protests against Netanyahu in the last months- they have been saluted in the West as the proof of the civil conscience of democratic Israelis. However, I have not seen such huge protests, not even much smaller ones, to stop what human rights organisations call apartheid- which is incommensurably worse than a law to limit the powers of the Supreme Court. What is a Supreme Court that allows apartheid worth anyway?

invalidname 3y ago
> I don't think it's a matter of leaders on either side. Especially not on the Palestinian side. Leaders make peace agreements. They also enforce them by controlling their own people. Peace doesn't spontaneously happen without two people signing an accord. In the past it was Rabin and Arafat. Now Abbas is too weak and so is the liberal wing in Israel. There's no one with the power or motivation to move in that direction. > In the end, the only voice that has any influence in the West is that of Israel. Palestinians are ignored or blamed. This is very selective and ignores cases where the UK and USA conspired against Israel in the 50s. It ignores the media coverage in Europe which is often anti-Israeli, specifically the BBC is very pro-Palestinian. It also ignores the mirror image in Arab countries which shows a very biased anti-Israel view of the situation. Israel is held to a higher standard than the Palestinians. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, Israel is a state not a terrorist organization. But people often forget that. There are still laws and standards. E.g. a couple of years ago a terrorist tried to stab a soldier and was shot. He was lying down neutralized and a soldier walked up to him and shot him. That soldier went to jail for killing a terrorist. People were upset about that, but it shows there's justice. Even a terrorist deserves justice. Israel doesn't live up to that standard every time, but it does the right thing in most cases. > I think Israelis really need to ask themselves if they're sincere in their support for the creation of a Palestinian state. Many want a Palestinian state and many don't. It's a struggle that has been tearing the Israeli society from within. A long running Palestinian joke is that if they would leave Israel alone the Jews will kill one another in a week. > Which entails removing settlements, establishing and respecting an international border Israel did that in the past when it signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. It removed settlements from Gaza and left that area. > never, ever, expand Israel by another square centimetre. Israel got these extra territories as a result of a pending attack. It didn't explicitly go out to try and expand its borders and never tried to do that. There are encroaching settlements which I agree are very bad, but they are on top of land that's already occupied. > to stop what human rights organisations call apartheid Those happened in the 90s and 80s. They were huge and birthed major movements. These protests led to the Oslo accord. The failure of that (again due in large part to the Hamas) essentially decimated these movements and most of the country now considers this as bunk. "We tried peace, we tried giving them a country and they blew up busses and coffee shops". I think that's a false narrative as the Palestinians are not a single entity. But it's very hard to make that case today. Especially now. After the Hamas murdered and kidnapped women and children people were celebrating in the streets of Gaza. These pictures (as well as the horrible stuff on social networks) reached the Israeli public. This has brought a level of rage that unfortunately isn't limited only to the Hamas. > What is a Supreme Court that allows apartheid worth anyway? I actually agree with that partially, but it would probably be MUCH worse if it weren't for that court.