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This sort of rhetoric and this time isn't helping the Palestinian people in any way. Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. This has nothin

This sort of rhetoric and this time isn't helping the Palestinian people in any way. Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with mass murder of civilians. Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state. They sent suicide bombers during the Oslo accord to stop any chance of peace. There's a lot of valid criticism we can levy on Israel, I 100% agree with that. Especially against the current government. That's why it's important to focus on real issues e.g. a more reliable organization covering the bad things happening in the territories and Gaza: https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/

SenAnder 3y ago
> This has nothing to do with race Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. > Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. > mass murder of civilians. At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage?
- invalidname 3y ago
  > Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. Israel has over 2M Arab citizens. An Arab supreme court Justice and one of the most liberal human rights laws anywhere. This just isn't true. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens but that is due to the fact that these territories aren't a part of Israel. This is bad but also leaves an opening to a Palestinian state in the future. Most of the Palestinians who don't live in Israel left after the independence war. This war was started by Palestinians who were unhappy with the division of the land. They lost and some ran off. Those who stayed got full citizenship. Those who ran can't come back. This is sad but understandable. To be fair, many Jews lived in Arab countries prior to the formation of Israel. They can't go back either and also lost all of their possessions when they ran. The right of return is specifically aimed for Jews since Israel is defined as the homeland of the Jewish people. Yes, it's a problematic law but a special case, it's the exception not the rule. > You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. Nonsense. Israelis co-existed with the Arab populace. Local Arab leaders wrote congratulatory letters to the Israeli government after the 1967 6 day war. There were violent incidence and discrimination for sure. But also amazing co-existence. Famously, the Jews in Haifa stopped the local Arab population from running in the independence war and guaranteed their safety. There is no segregation in Israel. Some cities are Jewish and some are Arab. Some are mixed e.g. Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel-Aviv/Jaffa etc. are all huge mixed cities. It's illegal to discriminate based on race/religion/gender or sexual orientation. Does it happen? Yes. Do people sue and win? Also yes. > > mass murder of civilians. > At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html You're mixing between the occupied territories and Israel. Jews were killed mostly in terror attacks which included MANY suicide bombings during those years. Retaliation took many forms but this is war. Notice children got killed in both sides. I 100% agree the occupation should stop. But the Hamas specifically places children in the line of fire to create these situations. E.g. just the other day the Hamas claimed Israel killed 500 people in a hospital. Turns out it was a misfired missile they tried to shoot at Israel. They did that a lot over the past few years. Israel makes a lot of effort to minimize civilian casualties. But how would you fight against an enemy that puts on suicide vests and blows up busses en-mass? That enemy is driven by an extremist religious dogma and believes that children who die are rewarded in heaven. They use children as human shields and have no moral compass. I agree Israel should do better. But it's not a simple task. > I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage? I want a peaceful solution. So do 80-90 percent of Palestinians and Israelis. There are the crazy people on both sides who keep destroying that chance for peace. Making the rhetoric more extreme and supporting these psychos (like the Hamas) is damaging to both sides.
  - SenAnder 3y ago
    Both describe the refugees as a result of the “Arab attack” in 1948. But even a cursory look at history reveals how flawed this is. Before a single Arab soldier crossed into Palestine on May 15, 1948 more than half the total refugees were created. Arab mobilization then became a reaction to massive refugee flows and not the cause of it. When Israel declared independence, its military had already succeeded in depopulating Palestine’s largest cities of Jaffa and Haifa as well as Tiberias, Safad and Beisan. Perhaps those writing today’s New York Times should read their own reporting from this period because they’d quickly learn they are peddling distortions that are simply unfit to print. The depopulation of Palestine was no accident. The Zionist movement sought to create a Jewish state in a territory where Jews were a minority. On the eve of the Nakba, Jews constituted 30 percent of the population and owned 7 percent of the land. Within months, they forged a state on 78 percent of the territory where they flipped the demographic ratio from 30:70 Jews to Arabs to 90:10. To think such dramatic demographic change happens by accident—only coincidently suiting decades old Zionist aims—is dangerous naiveté. Such things happen only by design. — https://www.thedailybeast.com/nakba-denials-must-be-condemned https://www.thedailybeast.com/nakba-denials-must-be-condemne... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Natio... Look, I get it, you want a country of your own, and consider some Palestinian displacement a necessary consequence. Can't make an omelette etc. But people would respect Israel a lot more if it just admitted it's a Jewish ethno-state borne of conquest, instead of peddling excuses and rationalizations how they just want to ensure democracy, and expelling the previous inhabitants of what is now their land is just an unfortunate coincidence that is not their fault.
    - invalidname 3y ago
      > When Israel declared independence, its military had already succeeded in depopulating Palestine’s largest cities of Jaffa and Haifa as well as Tiberias, Safad and Beisan. Dude. I live next to Jaffa and it is 100% an Arab city. Not "depopulated". Neither is Haifa etc. We can go back to 48 in which case we can start talking about the staggering amount of death dished out by both sides. It's tragic but doesn't help anyone. It also predates modern law and democracy in Israel. It predates human rights laws etc. There was a large amount of immigration to Israel in the 40s as Jews fled the Holocaust. Once borders opened up they moved in and also fled Arab countries where they were quickly deemed the enemy. People lost everything there too. I'm not saying the Palestinians aren't a victim here, but don't pretend they weren't an aggressor either. This was a bad situation with victims and aggressors on both sides. > Such things happen only by design. This is nonsense and speculative. It's inconsistent with the facts that some communities remained whole while others were indeed chased away. > People would respect Israel a lot more if it just admitted it's a Jewish ethno-state borne of conquest, instead of peddling excuses and rationalizations how they just want to ensure democracy, and expelling the previous inhabitants of what is now their land is just an unfortunate coincidence that is not their fault. This is ridiculous. People would most certainly not respect Israel more if it made such a claim. Why doesn't the USA make this exact claim for native Americans? Or really, any country that exists in the Americas? Australia? Hell, the UKs crown is German ruling over Danes. If the unfortunate coincidence would have gone the other way it's a good chance that Jews would no longer exist. I'm sorry for the suffering of the Palestinian people. I truly am. But when that happened instead of talking to Israel the surrounding countries ganged up and attacked multiple times. The only reason Israel has these territories to begin with is that 3 armies surrounded Israel and attacked it together.
throw310822 3y ago
Just a few remarks, maybe they can help in explaining better the situation. > Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense Yeah, nobody does that. All the major human rights organisations (Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and in Israel, B'Tselem) agree in defining the regime imposed by Israel in the West Bank (not Gaza!) as apartheid. This is because an Israeli citizen in the West Bank (outside Israel proper) enjoys civil rights that his neighbours don't have- despite the power over both ultimately resting in the Israeli state. However, also don't forget that the West Bank and Gaza are part of the same country (or aspirational one)- so it's not exactly fair to say that the people of Gaza should not be bothered by what happens in the West Bank and vice-versa, they are just two regions of the same country. We would not say that it is unjustified for Texans to go to war if New York were attacked. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid > Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state Hamas is only in power in Gaza. The West Bank is governed by the much more moderate Fatah, and they still don't have a Palestinian state. However, Hamas is obviously a problem: so much so that it's known that Israel secretly supported it to weaken and divide their more moderate political counterparts. Also, note that the Likud party (Netanyahu's) has denied the right to the existence of a Palestinian state since its first charter: "a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-... https://www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-helping-create-hamas-bombing-it-718378 https://www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-hel...
- invalidname 3y ago
  Yes. The situation in the occupied territories is 100% terrible. > Hamas is only in power in Gaza. The West Bank is governed by the much more moderate Fatah, and they still don't have a Palestinian state. This became the situation after Oslo was effectively dead (thanks to the Hamas). > However, Hamas is obviously a problem: so much so that it's known that Israel secretly supported it to weaken and divide their more moderate political counterparts: THIS!!! But it isn't a "secret". Netanyahu said it out loud in 2019, I don't have the link though. He purposely supported the Hamas to weaken the PLO/Fatah and prevent the chance of a Palestinian state. He did some of that as far back as the 90's during the Oslo accord to stop that process. It's insane. We've been trying to get rid of that f*ing criminal but he's a sticky demagogue who always lands on his feet. Even now when he clearly bears a lot of the fault for this recent attack he still holds onto power and refuses to accept responsibility.
fubnle 3y ago
I agree with you, and furthermore, everyone seems to forget about the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from or pressured into leaving Muslim states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_... Yet somehow this isn't of any interest to those people making claims of "Israeli apartheid" and demanding boycotts and so on. Very one-sided.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  Even if it was true that there is nobody who has principles (and it's not true, not at all, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol8xhTySKfM&t=266s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol8xhTySKfM&t=266s), that would just be an opportunity for you or me or anyone to be the first human in history to have principles, instead of just an allegiance to a political group.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. No, its not, and Israel's apartheid predates Hamas (and fostering the development in Gaza of the Islamist network that became Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO was a strategic part of perpetuating it.)
- invalidname 3y ago
  I discussed this in the rest of the thread. Notice that during those years the PLO was still a terrorist organization and Hamas existed as the Muslim Brotherhood. A few years after the PLO laid down its arms Rabin was elected and the Oslo accord took place.

SenAnder 3y ago

> This has nothing to do with race Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. > Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. > mass murder of civilians. At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage?

invalidname 3y ago
> Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. Israel has over 2M Arab citizens. An Arab supreme court Justice and one of the most liberal human rights laws anywhere. This just isn't true. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens but that is due to the fact that these territories aren't a part of Israel. This is bad but also leaves an opening to a Palestinian state in the future. Most of the Palestinians who don't live in Israel left after the independence war. This war was started by Palestinians who were unhappy with the division of the land. They lost and some ran off. Those who stayed got full citizenship. Those who ran can't come back. This is sad but understandable. To be fair, many Jews lived in Arab countries prior to the formation of Israel. They can't go back either and also lost all of their possessions when they ran. The right of return is specifically aimed for Jews since Israel is defined as the homeland of the Jewish people. Yes, it's a problematic law but a special case, it's the exception not the rule. > You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. Nonsense. Israelis co-existed with the Arab populace. Local Arab leaders wrote congratulatory letters to the Israeli government after the 1967 6 day war. There were violent incidence and discrimination for sure. But also amazing co-existence. Famously, the Jews in Haifa stopped the local Arab population from running in the independence war and guaranteed their safety. There is no segregation in Israel. Some cities are Jewish and some are Arab. Some are mixed e.g. Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel-Aviv/Jaffa etc. are all huge mixed cities. It's illegal to discriminate based on race/religion/gender or sexual orientation. Does it happen? Yes. Do people sue and win? Also yes. > > mass murder of civilians. > At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html You're mixing between the occupied territories and Israel. Jews were killed mostly in terror attacks which included MANY suicide bombings during those years. Retaliation took many forms but this is war. Notice children got killed in both sides. I 100% agree the occupation should stop. But the Hamas specifically places children in the line of fire to create these situations. E.g. just the other day the Hamas claimed Israel killed 500 people in a hospital. Turns out it was a misfired missile they tried to shoot at Israel. They did that a lot over the past few years. Israel makes a lot of effort to minimize civilian casualties. But how would you fight against an enemy that puts on suicide vests and blows up busses en-mass? That enemy is driven by an extremist religious dogma and believes that children who die are rewarded in heaven. They use children as human shields and have no moral compass. I agree Israel should do better. But it's not a simple task. > I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage? I want a peaceful solution. So do 80-90 percent of Palestinians and Israelis. There are the crazy people on both sides who keep destroying that chance for peace. Making the rhetoric more extreme and supporting these psychos (like the Hamas) is damaging to both sides.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  Both describe the refugees as a result of the “Arab attack” in 1948. But even a cursory look at history reveals how flawed this is. Before a single Arab soldier crossed into Palestine on May 15, 1948 more than half the total refugees were created. Arab mobilization then became a reaction to massive refugee flows and not the cause of it. When Israel declared independence, its military had already succeeded in depopulating Palestine’s largest cities of Jaffa and Haifa as well as Tiberias, Safad and Beisan. Perhaps those writing today’s New York Times should read their own reporting from this period because they’d quickly learn they are peddling distortions that are simply unfit to print. The depopulation of Palestine was no accident. The Zionist movement sought to create a Jewish state in a territory where Jews were a minority. On the eve of the Nakba, Jews constituted 30 percent of the population and owned 7 percent of the land. Within months, they forged a state on 78 percent of the territory where they flipped the demographic ratio from 30:70 Jews to Arabs to 90:10. To think such dramatic demographic change happens by accident—only coincidently suiting decades old Zionist aims—is dangerous naiveté. Such things happen only by design. — https://www.thedailybeast.com/nakba-denials-must-be-condemned https://www.thedailybeast.com/nakba-denials-must-be-condemne... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Natio... Look, I get it, you want a country of your own, and consider some Palestinian displacement a necessary consequence. Can't make an omelette etc. But people would respect Israel a lot more if it just admitted it's a Jewish ethno-state borne of conquest, instead of peddling excuses and rationalizations how they just want to ensure democracy, and expelling the previous inhabitants of what is now their land is just an unfortunate coincidence that is not their fault.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    > When Israel declared independence, its military had already succeeded in depopulating Palestine’s largest cities of Jaffa and Haifa as well as Tiberias, Safad and Beisan. Dude. I live next to Jaffa and it is 100% an Arab city. Not "depopulated". Neither is Haifa etc. We can go back to 48 in which case we can start talking about the staggering amount of death dished out by both sides. It's tragic but doesn't help anyone. It also predates modern law and democracy in Israel. It predates human rights laws etc. There was a large amount of immigration to Israel in the 40s as Jews fled the Holocaust. Once borders opened up they moved in and also fled Arab countries where they were quickly deemed the enemy. People lost everything there too. I'm not saying the Palestinians aren't a victim here, but don't pretend they weren't an aggressor either. This was a bad situation with victims and aggressors on both sides. > Such things happen only by design. This is nonsense and speculative. It's inconsistent with the facts that some communities remained whole while others were indeed chased away. > People would respect Israel a lot more if it just admitted it's a Jewish ethno-state borne of conquest, instead of peddling excuses and rationalizations how they just want to ensure democracy, and expelling the previous inhabitants of what is now their land is just an unfortunate coincidence that is not their fault. This is ridiculous. People would most certainly not respect Israel more if it made such a claim. Why doesn't the USA make this exact claim for native Americans? Or really, any country that exists in the Americas? Australia? Hell, the UKs crown is German ruling over Danes. If the unfortunate coincidence would have gone the other way it's a good chance that Jews would no longer exist. I'm sorry for the suffering of the Palestinian people. I truly am. But when that happened instead of talking to Israel the surrounding countries ganged up and attacked multiple times. The only reason Israel has these territories to begin with is that 3 armies surrounded Israel and attacked it together.

throw310822 3y ago

Just a few remarks, maybe they can help in explaining better the situation. > Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense Yeah, nobody does that. All the major human rights organisations (Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and in Israel, B'Tselem) agree in defining the regime imposed by Israel in the West Bank (not Gaza!) as apartheid. This is because an Israeli citizen in the West Bank (outside Israel proper) enjoys civil rights that his neighbours don't have- despite the power over both ultimately resting in the Israeli state. However, also don't forget that the West Bank and Gaza are part of the same country (or aspirational one)- so it's not exactly fair to say that the people of Gaza should not be bothered by what happens in the West Bank and vice-versa, they are just two regions of the same country. We would not say that it is unjustified for Texans to go to war if New York were attacked. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid > Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state Hamas is only in power in Gaza. The West Bank is governed by the much more moderate Fatah, and they still don't have a Palestinian state. However, Hamas is obviously a problem: so much so that it's known that Israel secretly supported it to weaken and divide their more moderate political counterparts. Also, note that the Likud party (Netanyahu's) has denied the right to the existence of a Palestinian state since its first charter: "a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform... https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-... https://www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-helping-create-hamas-bombing-it-718378 https://www.tbsnews.net/hamas-israel-war/how-israel-went-hel...

invalidname 3y ago
Yes. The situation in the occupied territories is 100% terrible. > Hamas is only in power in Gaza. The West Bank is governed by the much more moderate Fatah, and they still don't have a Palestinian state. This became the situation after Oslo was effectively dead (thanks to the Hamas). > However, Hamas is obviously a problem: so much so that it's known that Israel secretly supported it to weaken and divide their more moderate political counterparts: THIS!!! But it isn't a "secret". Netanyahu said it out loud in 2019, I don't have the link though. He purposely supported the Hamas to weaken the PLO/Fatah and prevent the chance of a Palestinian state. He did some of that as far back as the 90's during the Oslo accord to stop that process. It's insane. We've been trying to get rid of that f*ing criminal but he's a sticky demagogue who always lands on his feet. Even now when he clearly bears a lot of the fault for this recent attack he still holds onto power and refuses to accept responsibility.

fubnle 3y ago

I agree with you, and furthermore, everyone seems to forget about the hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from or pressured into leaving Muslim states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_... Yet somehow this isn't of any interest to those people making claims of "Israeli apartheid" and demanding boycotts and so on. Very one-sided.

johnnyworker 3y ago
Even if it was true that there is nobody who has principles (and it's not true, not at all, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol8xhTySKfM&t=266s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol8xhTySKfM&t=266s), that would just be an opportunity for you or me or anyone to be the first human in history to have principles, instead of just an allegiance to a political group.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. No, its not, and Israel's apartheid predates Hamas (and fostering the development in Gaza of the Islamist network that became Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO was a strategic part of perpetuating it.)

invalidname 3y ago
I discussed this in the rest of the thread. Notice that during those years the PLO was still a terrorist organization and Hamas existed as the Muslim Brotherhood. A few years after the PLO laid down its arms Rabin was elected and the Oslo accord took place.