7 ms·

No Tech for Apartheid

70 points by jrepinc 3y ago

the_third_wave 3y ago
Wasn't there this rule on not doing politics here? If someone were to create a site proclaiming "No Tech for Terrorists" would that site be allowed to be discussed here or would it be removed because of the aforementioned rule?
danpalmer 3y ago
> By taking this action, you agree to receive emails from MPower Change, Jewish Voice for Peace, The Action Center on Race and The Economy, Adalah Justice Project, American Muslims for Palestine, Athena, BDS Berlin, BDS Movement, Carceral Tech Resistance Network, Dissenters, Eyewitness Palestine, Fight For The Future, IfNotNow, MediaJustice, National Lawyers Guild, the Palestine Institute for Public Diplomacy/Rabet, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Warehouse Worker Resource Center, The US Campaign for Palestinian Rights, and World Beyond War. You can unsubscribe at any time using the instructions provided in the emails. That's a lot of organisations they share your details with, none of which I want emails from. In particular I'd like to use my work email address to sign this to make a point, but I definitely don't want emails from all these groups on my work email.
- op00to 3y ago
  Wow. What good is getting spammed by ALL those groups?
  - aa-jv 3y ago
    A viable route around the iron-fist in a velvet glove that is modern, mainstream agitprop against the Palestinian people?
- WangComputers 3y ago
  You also probably get put on a government watch list. Rightfully or wrongly, there are anti-BDS laws in 35 American states and we all know which side the national security establishment is on.
  - austin-cheney 3y ago
    It looks like Americans can claim a 1st Amendment protection against prosecution of these laws provided they are acting as individuals and not on behalf of organizations. https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/texas-tightens-up-anti-bds-law-11661667 https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/texas-tightens-up-anti-b...
- TMWNN 3y ago
  >National Lawyers Guild Isn't this the outfit that has packs of attorneys at any leftist riot? My understanding is that anytime you see a well-dressed group quietly watching a George Floyd riot or equivalent, it's the NLG.
WangComputers 3y ago
"Technology should be used to bring people together, not enable apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and settler-colonialism." I would like to see the authors of this petition clarify their opinion of the United States and its status as a "settler-colonialist" entity.
- nathan_compton 3y ago
  I'm sure they think the US is a settler-colonialist entity. I mean how could it not be considered one? We still have the little bit of the native population that is left on reservations. I think you're making the mistake that "settler-colonialist" is some kind of demonic brand that condemns everything that it might be applied to to perdition or at least cancellation, but its really just a plain description of how history has brought us to this moment in time. There are egregious cases and less egregious ones.
  - WangComputers 3y ago
    "I think you're making the mistake that "settler-colonialist" is some kind of demonic brand that condemns everything that it might be applied to to perdition or at least cancellation" That's precisely what they're doing. Anyone with even a casual understanding of the modern American hard-left knows that's what they're saying and anyone who says otherwise is obviously, willfully lying.
    - nathan_compton 3y ago
      I wouldn't describe myself as "hard-left" but I am in a milieu where the legacies of colonialism are routinely discussed and I can personally tell you that there really isn't any intent to "cancel" everything associated with colonial powers or any bullshit like that. Are you sure you're not taking your cues about what the "left" believes from right wing media who select the most absurd tumbler posts as evidence for what project the "left" is up to? In general, identifying the most extreme opinions consonant with a general set of ideas will, no surprise, furnish you with extreme opinions. The "hard right" in the United States wants to "obliterate trans people from public life" and install a "Red Caesar" to de-secularize the United States under righteous authoritarian rule. It would be stupid of me to associate those beliefs with, for example, Mitch McConnell or conservative members of the supreme court, though see below. The fact is that there is _no organized left_ in the United States. Those kids posting memes on tumbler have no power, Bernie Sanders (a moderate by the standards of European democracies) couldn't take the Democratic nomination from a liberal capitalist. Getting your brain twisted about the "far left" is deranged. The far right, on the other hand, is much more politically organized and engaged, as evidenced by the fact that they are, among other things, banning books, passing legislation, and gumming up congress as we speak.
light_hue_1 3y ago
What do these people want? I support Palestinian freedom. I want them to have their own state. I want them to be prosperous and happy. But given a free and fair election they didn't choose that. They chose Hamas who then turned into a violent dictatorship killing a lot of Palestinians along the way. Now Hamas rips up infrastructure that the West donates like water pumps in order to build missiles. So what do they want? All of us to die at the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah? Their literal goal is to drive us into the sea. We need practical real solutions. I'm asking an honest question not a rhetorical one: what do they want? If we give Palestinians total freedom tomorrow they will turn around and try to murder us. As they just did to 1300 innocent people. The worst day since the Holocaust. All of this reminds me of the performative actions around Ukraine. End the war to save lives by having Ukraine agree to be incorporated up Russia. Not that any of the people advocating this in the West like Chomsky would volunteer to live in a Russian dictatorship. Same here. How many of these people are willing to go live next to Hamas and Hezbollah and put their own families at real risk of death?
- Synaesthesia 3y ago
  Hamas offered to make peace along the two state solution in 2006 when they were elected, they continue to maintain that position. Israel knows how to end the rockets, make peace and end the brutal siege.
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    This is totally false. Hamas never offered peace. It's very easy to fall for Hamas propaganda. Israel has offered the two state solution over a dozen times! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_... But what Hamas means by a two state solution includes two things that don't make it a two state solution. The right of return and killing Jews. When Hamas says they offer peace read carefully. They offer a peace where Israel must withdraw (that's fine) but where all Palestinians have the right to reclaim every house they had before Israel existed. This means killing Jews. How is that peace? Read for yourself https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/08/israel1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/... They aren't offering peace. They're offering for Israel and all Jews to volunteer for suicide. Would you do this? Allow a native American to murder your family because they have a claim to the land you're on?
fidotron 3y ago
Aside from the rights and wrongs there are legal implications for supporting BDS associated movements in many US states, including that those that do so cannot be government contractors.
- emayljames 3y ago
  So was protesting segregation laws.
Communitivity 3y ago
This is a dupe, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31601472 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31601472, from 2022. Also, whether you support Israel as defending themselves, or consider Israeli actions a form of genocide, language matters. By using the term Apartheid I interpreted this as an unconscious attempt to marginalize the efforts and sacrifices made by those who fought against Apartheid in South Africa, including Nelson Mandela and many others - in order to increase emotional response for your cause. I am sure that is not what you intended, but in communication perception is as important as intention, if not more so. So I ask that we all keep Apartheid to mean the struggle against racism, segregation and hatred that Nelson Mandela and his people fought hard to win. Instead, come up with a new word. For example Apartheid means 'Separation. The Arabic word for "separation" is ﻓِﺮَﺍﻕ (pronounced "firaaq"). Firaaq could be the word to uniquely mean what is happening in Palestine, as Apartheid is for South Africa. Or use a Hebrew word (Apartheid was Afrikaaner IIRC), such as Hafrada, which is the Hebrew word for "separation". It can also mean "segregation". By using a unique word close in cultural context to the events you create something that you can attach unique meaning to, and generate support against.
- aa-jv 3y ago
  >keep Apartheid to mean the struggle against racism, segregation and hatred that Nelson Mandela and his people fought hard to win. Just no. This is an entirely appropriate term and Israel doesn't need to re-brand it in order to escape the association with previous examples. South Africa moved on from its apartheid problem. Israel needs to, also. Keep this word in use, as it is entirely accurate and appropriate to be using this term. It doesn't matter if Israeli citizens are embarassed by it - they should be embarassed for the conditions of their state.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > I interpreted this as an unconscious attempt to marginalize the efforts and sacrifices made by those who fought against Apartheid in South Africa, including Nelson Mandela and many others - in order to increase emotional response for your cause. Nelson mandela HIMSELF called the Israel situation “Apartheid”.
emptyfile 3y ago
[dead]
YetAnotherNick 3y ago
Israel offered free Palestine as late as 2008 and agreed to remove Israeli's settlements but it was Palestinians who declined it. Surprisingly this gets missed by all the major media. Palestinians should have free and fair election and ask for its own free land and negotiate for that. Then they will have my support. Getting money from foreign country for terror shouldn't be anyone's aim.
- Semaphor 3y ago
  As usual in this conflict, nothing is as easy and straightforward as some people would like: https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-...
- matthewfelgate 3y ago
  Nonsense. Israel is expanding settlements in the West Bank.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    Both can be true... Both are true.
  - YetAnotherNick 3y ago
    So now nonsense is based on your beliefs and not facts. The statement I said was fairly easy to verify as well[1]. Palestinians don't seem to want free Palestine. And yes now that free Palestine is out of table, Israel doubled down on settlements. [1]: https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olmerts-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank/0000017f-e22d-d568-ad7f-f36f71750000 https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olm...
    - matthewfelgate 3y ago
      If Israel wanted peace it would not be building new settler homes in the occupied West Bank. And it would withdraw from all occupied settlements in the West Bank. It doesn't need agreement with Palestinians to do that.
matthewfelgate 3y ago
I wish Palestinians would not use the word Apartheid. It's not right and it doesn't help their cause.
- Simulacra 3y ago
  As long as I've been alive, the only thing I know about the Palestinians is that they use violence to achieve their means. That's enough for me not to support them.
  - matthewfelgate 3y ago
    And Israel don't use violence..?
  - jagrsw 3y ago
    Violence during uprisings is often targeted at military structures and is generally not classified as terrorism under international law or ethics. This is obviously not a case in the discussed topic. Blanket condemnation oversimplifies a complex issue.
- throw310822 3y ago
  It's not Palestinians who do. It's the major human rights organisations: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and in Israel, B'Tselem: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid But I am afraid this will fail to convince you. With Israel, I am often reminded of that old joke about the car driver claiming that everyone on the motorway is driving the wrong way.
SenAnder 3y ago
A noble campaign, but it may be illegal in the US (and Spain, and legally risky in a few other countries) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws: Most anti-BDS laws have taken one of two forms: contract-focused laws requiring government contractors to promise that they are not boycotting Israel; and investment-focused laws, mandating public investment funds to avoid entities boycotting Israel. [..] The Anti-Boycott Act of 2018 [..] does not target boycotts against Israel specifically, but makes it illegal to “comply with, further, or support any boycott fostered or imposed by any foreign country, against a country which is friendly to the United States” [..] and as the Office of Antiboycott Compliance notes “The Arab League boycott of Israel is the principal unsanctioned foreign boycott that U.S. persons must be concerned with today.”
- drcongo 3y ago
  I'd never heard of anti-BDS laws before today, did the US also have these in place to protect South African apartheid?
invalidname 3y ago
This sort of rhetoric and this time isn't helping the Palestinian people in any way. Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with mass murder of civilians. Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state. They sent suicide bombers during the Oslo accord to stop any chance of peace. There's a lot of valid criticism we can levy on Israel, I 100% agree with that. Especially against the current government. That's why it's important to focus on real issues e.g. a more reliable organization covering the bad things happening in the territories and Gaza: https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/
- SenAnder 3y ago
  > This has nothing to do with race Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. > Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. > mass murder of civilians. At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage?
  - invalidname 3y ago
    > Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. Israel has over 2M Arab citizens. An Arab supreme court Justice and one of the most liberal human rights laws anywhere. This just isn't true. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens but that is due to the fact that these territories aren't a part of Israel. This is bad but also leaves an opening to a Palestinian state in the future. Most of the Palestinians who don't live in Israel left after the independence war. This war was started by Palestinians who were unhappy with the division of the land. They lost and some ran off. Those who stayed got full citizenship. Those who ran can't come back. This is sad but understandable. To be fair, many Jews lived in Arab countries prior to the formation of Israel. They can't go back either and also lost all of their possessions when they ran. The right of return is specifically aimed for Jews since Israel is defined as the homeland of the Jewish people. Yes, it's a problematic law but a special case, it's the exception not the rule. > You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. Nonsense. Israelis co-existed with the Arab populace. Local Arab leaders wrote congratulatory letters to the Israeli government after the 1967 6 day war. There were violent incidence and discrimination for sure. But also amazing co-existence. Famously, the Jews in Haifa stopped the local Arab population from running in the independence war and guaranteed their safety. There is no segregation in Israel. Some cities are Jewish and some are Arab. Some are mixed e.g. Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel-Aviv/Jaffa etc. are all huge mixed cities. It's illegal to discriminate based on race/religion/gender or sexual orientation. Does it happen? Yes. Do people sue and win? Also yes. > > mass murder of civilians. > At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html You're mixing between the occupied territories and Israel. Jews were killed mostly in terror attacks which included MANY suicide bombings during those years. Retaliation took many forms but this is war. Notice children got killed in both sides. I 100% agree the occupation should stop. But the Hamas specifically places children in the line of fire to create these situations. E.g. just the other day the Hamas claimed Israel killed 500 people in a hospital. Turns out it was a misfired missile they tried to shoot at Israel. They did that a lot over the past few years. Israel makes a lot of effort to minimize civilian casualties. But how would you fight against an enemy that puts on suicide vests and blows up busses en-mass? That enemy is driven by an extremist religious dogma and believes that children who die are rewarded in heaven. They use children as human shields and have no moral compass. I agree Israel should do better. But it's not a simple task. > I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage? I want a peaceful solution. So do 80-90 percent of Palestinians and Israelis. There are the crazy people on both sides who keep destroying that chance for peace. Making the rhetoric more extreme and supporting these psychos (like the Hamas) is damaging to both sides.
daft_pink 3y ago
We need a global solution to refugees and refugee camps throughout the middle east. Israel cannot solve this problem and the people in these camps should be allowed to integrate with another country and live real lives. Including refugees from Syria in European countries. However, Israel has a right to exist and it's totally unfair to consider this apartheid.
compsciphd 3y ago
I feel sorry for the anti Israel tech crowd, when basically all the tech they use probably has israeli licensed tech / ip in it and hence their usage of the tech ends up directly benefiting Israeli tax payers and therefore indirectly the Israeli government. My sarcastic response to them, you need to become a luddite (or have an amish like rejection of modern technology).

70 points by jrepinc 3y ago

Wasn't there this rule on not doing politics here? If someone were to create a site proclaiming "No Tech for Terrorists" would that site be allowed to be discussed here or would it be removed because of the aforementioned rule?

danpalmer 3y ago

> By taking this action, you agree to receive emails from MPower Change, Jewish Voice for Peace, The Action Center on Race and The Economy, Adalah Justice Project, American Muslims for Palestine, Athena, BDS Berlin, BDS Movement, Carceral Tech Resistance Network, Dissenters, Eyewitness Palestine, Fight For The Future, IfNotNow, MediaJustice, National Lawyers Guild, the Palestine Institute for Public Diplomacy/Rabet, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Warehouse Worker Resource Center, The US Campaign for Palestinian Rights, and World Beyond War. You can unsubscribe at any time using the instructions provided in the emails. That's a lot of organisations they share your details with, none of which I want emails from. In particular I'd like to use my work email address to sign this to make a point, but I definitely don't want emails from all these groups on my work email.

op00to 3y ago
Wow. What good is getting spammed by ALL those groups?
- aa-jv 3y ago
  A viable route around the iron-fist in a velvet glove that is modern, mainstream agitprop against the Palestinian people?
WangComputers 3y ago
You also probably get put on a government watch list. Rightfully or wrongly, there are anti-BDS laws in 35 American states and we all know which side the national security establishment is on.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  It looks like Americans can claim a 1st Amendment protection against prosecution of these laws provided they are acting as individuals and not on behalf of organizations. https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/texas-tightens-up-anti-bds-law-11661667 https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/texas-tightens-up-anti-b...
TMWNN 3y ago
>National Lawyers Guild Isn't this the outfit that has packs of attorneys at any leftist riot? My understanding is that anytime you see a well-dressed group quietly watching a George Floyd riot or equivalent, it's the NLG.

WangComputers 3y ago

"Technology should be used to bring people together, not enable apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and settler-colonialism." I would like to see the authors of this petition clarify their opinion of the United States and its status as a "settler-colonialist" entity.

nathan_compton 3y ago
I'm sure they think the US is a settler-colonialist entity. I mean how could it not be considered one? We still have the little bit of the native population that is left on reservations. I think you're making the mistake that "settler-colonialist" is some kind of demonic brand that condemns everything that it might be applied to to perdition or at least cancellation, but its really just a plain description of how history has brought us to this moment in time. There are egregious cases and less egregious ones.
- WangComputers 3y ago
  "I think you're making the mistake that "settler-colonialist" is some kind of demonic brand that condemns everything that it might be applied to to perdition or at least cancellation" That's precisely what they're doing. Anyone with even a casual understanding of the modern American hard-left knows that's what they're saying and anyone who says otherwise is obviously, willfully lying.
  - nathan_compton 3y ago
    I wouldn't describe myself as "hard-left" but I am in a milieu where the legacies of colonialism are routinely discussed and I can personally tell you that there really isn't any intent to "cancel" everything associated with colonial powers or any bullshit like that. Are you sure you're not taking your cues about what the "left" believes from right wing media who select the most absurd tumbler posts as evidence for what project the "left" is up to? In general, identifying the most extreme opinions consonant with a general set of ideas will, no surprise, furnish you with extreme opinions. The "hard right" in the United States wants to "obliterate trans people from public life" and install a "Red Caesar" to de-secularize the United States under righteous authoritarian rule. It would be stupid of me to associate those beliefs with, for example, Mitch McConnell or conservative members of the supreme court, though see below. The fact is that there is _no organized left_ in the United States. Those kids posting memes on tumbler have no power, Bernie Sanders (a moderate by the standards of European democracies) couldn't take the Democratic nomination from a liberal capitalist. Getting your brain twisted about the "far left" is deranged. The far right, on the other hand, is much more politically organized and engaged, as evidenced by the fact that they are, among other things, banning books, passing legislation, and gumming up congress as we speak.

light_hue_1 3y ago

What do these people want? I support Palestinian freedom. I want them to have their own state. I want them to be prosperous and happy. But given a free and fair election they didn't choose that. They chose Hamas who then turned into a violent dictatorship killing a lot of Palestinians along the way. Now Hamas rips up infrastructure that the West donates like water pumps in order to build missiles. So what do they want? All of us to die at the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah? Their literal goal is to drive us into the sea. We need practical real solutions. I'm asking an honest question not a rhetorical one: what do they want? If we give Palestinians total freedom tomorrow they will turn around and try to murder us. As they just did to 1300 innocent people. The worst day since the Holocaust. All of this reminds me of the performative actions around Ukraine. End the war to save lives by having Ukraine agree to be incorporated up Russia. Not that any of the people advocating this in the West like Chomsky would volunteer to live in a Russian dictatorship. Same here. How many of these people are willing to go live next to Hamas and Hezbollah and put their own families at real risk of death?

Synaesthesia 3y ago
Hamas offered to make peace along the two state solution in 2006 when they were elected, they continue to maintain that position. Israel knows how to end the rockets, make peace and end the brutal siege.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  This is totally false. Hamas never offered peace. It's very easy to fall for Hamas propaganda. Israel has offered the two state solution over a dozen times! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_... But what Hamas means by a two state solution includes two things that don't make it a two state solution. The right of return and killing Jews. When Hamas says they offer peace read carefully. They offer a peace where Israel must withdraw (that's fine) but where all Palestinians have the right to reclaim every house they had before Israel existed. This means killing Jews. How is that peace? Read for yourself https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/08/israel1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/... They aren't offering peace. They're offering for Israel and all Jews to volunteer for suicide. Would you do this? Allow a native American to murder your family because they have a claim to the land you're on?

fidotron 3y ago

Aside from the rights and wrongs there are legal implications for supporting BDS associated movements in many US states, including that those that do so cannot be government contractors.

emayljames 3y ago
So was protesting segregation laws.

Communitivity 3y ago

This is a dupe, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31601472 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31601472, from 2022. Also, whether you support Israel as defending themselves, or consider Israeli actions a form of genocide, language matters. By using the term Apartheid I interpreted this as an unconscious attempt to marginalize the efforts and sacrifices made by those who fought against Apartheid in South Africa, including Nelson Mandela and many others - in order to increase emotional response for your cause. I am sure that is not what you intended, but in communication perception is as important as intention, if not more so. So I ask that we all keep Apartheid to mean the struggle against racism, segregation and hatred that Nelson Mandela and his people fought hard to win. Instead, come up with a new word. For example Apartheid means 'Separation. The Arabic word for "separation" is ﻓِﺮَﺍﻕ (pronounced "firaaq"). Firaaq could be the word to uniquely mean what is happening in Palestine, as Apartheid is for South Africa. Or use a Hebrew word (Apartheid was Afrikaaner IIRC), such as Hafrada, which is the Hebrew word for "separation". It can also mean "segregation". By using a unique word close in cultural context to the events you create something that you can attach unique meaning to, and generate support against.

aa-jv 3y ago
>keep Apartheid to mean the struggle against racism, segregation and hatred that Nelson Mandela and his people fought hard to win. Just no. This is an entirely appropriate term and Israel doesn't need to re-brand it in order to escape the association with previous examples. South Africa moved on from its apartheid problem. Israel needs to, also. Keep this word in use, as it is entirely accurate and appropriate to be using this term. It doesn't matter if Israeli citizens are embarassed by it - they should be embarassed for the conditions of their state.
avgcorrection 3y ago
> I interpreted this as an unconscious attempt to marginalize the efforts and sacrifices made by those who fought against Apartheid in South Africa, including Nelson Mandela and many others - in order to increase emotional response for your cause. Nelson mandela HIMSELF called the Israel situation “Apartheid”.

emptyfile 3y ago

[dead]

YetAnotherNick 3y ago

Israel offered free Palestine as late as 2008 and agreed to remove Israeli's settlements but it was Palestinians who declined it. Surprisingly this gets missed by all the major media. Palestinians should have free and fair election and ask for its own free land and negotiate for that. Then they will have my support. Getting money from foreign country for terror shouldn't be anyone's aim.

Semaphor 3y ago
As usual in this conflict, nothing is as easy and straightforward as some people would like: https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-...
matthewfelgate 3y ago
Nonsense. Israel is expanding settlements in the West Bank.
- invalidname 3y ago
  Both can be true... Both are true.
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago
  So now nonsense is based on your beliefs and not facts. The statement I said was fairly easy to verify as well[1]. Palestinians don't seem to want free Palestine. And yes now that free Palestine is out of table, Israel doubled down on settlements. [1]: https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olmerts-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank/0000017f-e22d-d568-ad7f-f36f71750000 https://www.haaretz.com/2008-08-12/ty-article/pa-rejects-olm...
  - matthewfelgate 3y ago
    If Israel wanted peace it would not be building new settler homes in the occupied West Bank. And it would withdraw from all occupied settlements in the West Bank. It doesn't need agreement with Palestinians to do that.

matthewfelgate 3y ago

I wish Palestinians would not use the word Apartheid. It's not right and it doesn't help their cause.

Simulacra 3y ago
As long as I've been alive, the only thing I know about the Palestinians is that they use violence to achieve their means. That's enough for me not to support them.
- matthewfelgate 3y ago
  And Israel don't use violence..?
- jagrsw 3y ago
  Violence during uprisings is often targeted at military structures and is generally not classified as terrorism under international law or ethics. This is obviously not a case in the discussed topic. Blanket condemnation oversimplifies a complex issue.
throw310822 3y ago
It's not Palestinians who do. It's the major human rights organisations: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and in Israel, B'Tselem: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid But I am afraid this will fail to convince you. With Israel, I am often reminded of that old joke about the car driver claiming that everyone on the motorway is driving the wrong way.

SenAnder 3y ago

A noble campaign, but it may be illegal in the US (and Spain, and legally risky in a few other countries) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws: Most anti-BDS laws have taken one of two forms: contract-focused laws requiring government contractors to promise that they are not boycotting Israel; and investment-focused laws, mandating public investment funds to avoid entities boycotting Israel. [..] The Anti-Boycott Act of 2018 [..] does not target boycotts against Israel specifically, but makes it illegal to “comply with, further, or support any boycott fostered or imposed by any foreign country, against a country which is friendly to the United States” [..] and as the Office of Antiboycott Compliance notes “The Arab League boycott of Israel is the principal unsanctioned foreign boycott that U.S. persons must be concerned with today.”

drcongo 3y ago
I'd never heard of anti-BDS laws before today, did the US also have these in place to protect South African apartheid?

invalidname 3y ago

This sort of rhetoric and this time isn't helping the Palestinian people in any way. Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with mass murder of civilians. Hamas is the reason we don't have a Palestinian state. They sent suicide bombers during the Oslo accord to stop any chance of peace. There's a lot of valid criticism we can levy on Israel, I 100% agree with that. Especially against the current government. That's why it's important to focus on real issues e.g. a more reliable organization covering the bad things happening in the territories and Gaza: https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/

SenAnder 3y ago
> This has nothing to do with race Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. > Calling Israels war with Hamas Apartheid is utter nonsense. You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. > mass murder of civilians. At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage?
- invalidname 3y ago
  > Palestinians were expelled from their land based on their race, they cannot get Israeli citizenship despite having lived there for centuries, while a Jew from New York can get that citizenship by virtue of his race. Israel has over 2M Arab citizens. An Arab supreme court Justice and one of the most liberal human rights laws anywhere. This just isn't true. Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens but that is due to the fact that these territories aren't a part of Israel. This is bad but also leaves an opening to a Palestinian state in the future. Most of the Palestinians who don't live in Israel left after the independence war. This war was started by Palestinians who were unhappy with the division of the land. They lost and some ran off. Those who stayed got full citizenship. Those who ran can't come back. This is sad but understandable. To be fair, many Jews lived in Arab countries prior to the formation of Israel. They can't go back either and also lost all of their possessions when they ran. The right of return is specifically aimed for Jews since Israel is defined as the homeland of the Jewish people. Yes, it's a problematic law but a special case, it's the exception not the rule. > You're right. Israel was at war with Palestinians long before Hamas came to be, and made no effort to coexist with them under a system of segregation. Their actions are better described as 'genocide'. Nonsense. Israelis co-existed with the Arab populace. Local Arab leaders wrote congratulatory letters to the Israeli government after the 1967 6 day war. There were violent incidence and discrimination for sure. But also amazing co-existence. Famously, the Jews in Haifa stopped the local Arab population from running in the independence war and guaranteed their safety. There is no segregation in Israel. Some cities are Jewish and some are Arab. Some are mixed e.g. Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel-Aviv/Jaffa etc. are all huge mixed cities. It's illegal to discriminate based on race/religion/gender or sexual orientation. Does it happen? Yes. Do people sue and win? Also yes. > > mass murder of civilians. > At least 14,212 Palestinians and 2,746 Israelis have been killed by someone from the other side since 2000. - https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html You're mixing between the occupied territories and Israel. Jews were killed mostly in terror attacks which included MANY suicide bombings during those years. Retaliation took many forms but this is war. Notice children got killed in both sides. I 100% agree the occupation should stop. But the Hamas specifically places children in the line of fire to create these situations. E.g. just the other day the Hamas claimed Israel killed 500 people in a hospital. Turns out it was a misfired missile they tried to shoot at Israel. They did that a lot over the past few years. Israel makes a lot of effort to minimize civilian casualties. But how would you fight against an enemy that puts on suicide vests and blows up busses en-mass? That enemy is driven by an extremist religious dogma and believes that children who die are rewarded in heaven. They use children as human shields and have no moral compass. I agree Israel should do better. But it's not a simple task. > I assume you're of the opinion that the Israeli deaths were due to unprovoked attacks, and the Palestinian deaths were justified retaliation, albeit with regrettable collateral damage? I want a peaceful solution. So do 80-90 percent of Palestinians and Israelis. There are the crazy people on both sides who keep destroying that chance for peace. Making the rhetoric more extreme and supporting these psychos (like the Hamas) is damaging to both sides.

daft_pink 3y ago

We need a global solution to refugees and refugee camps throughout the middle east. Israel cannot solve this problem and the people in these camps should be allowed to integrate with another country and live real lives. Including refugees from Syria in European countries. However, Israel has a right to exist and it's totally unfair to consider this apartheid.

compsciphd 3y ago

I feel sorry for the anti Israel tech crowd, when basically all the tech they use probably has israeli licensed tech / ip in it and hence their usage of the tech ends up directly benefiting Israeli tax payers and therefore indirectly the Israeli government. My sarcastic response to them, you need to become a luddite (or have an amish like rejection of modern technology).