3 ms·

> without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach A minor gripe: asking protesters of a utterly shitty, but long standing, complex and entranc

> without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach A minor gripe: asking protesters of a utterly shitty, but long standing, complex and entranched situation, to come up clear, simple and compelling alternatives is generally unfair. In particular the political process should work in reverse: people voice issues, and their governing bodies come up with viable solutions. That's their job. > police quality is higher in Europe It can be utterly shitty too. The difference could be that they're not armed with military grade material and protestors aren't willing to let things slide, even as pretty gruesome confrontations happen (people killed, losing eyes, limbs etc.)

MrJohz 3y ago
> In particular the political process should work in reverse: people voice issues, and their governing bodies come up with viable solutions. That's their job. I get what you mean but the governing bodies of the people are the people. In a democracy, we are in charge of our own institutions, at least in theory. I agree that we can't lay the full burden for solving injustice on the people affected by that injustice, and I think finding solutions for injustice is something that everyone should take part in, and there is a particular responsibility for those with the most amount of power to act. But often the people most affected by injustice are the ones who can see the flaws in the existing system best, and who have the best ideas as to where a solution might come from.
- School-Cotton 3y ago
  The US is an extremely flawed democracy. If the US were a functional democracy then maybe popular will would control the police, but it’s not.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
    Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? Not sure the quality of US institutions at the national level is all that relevant. Note, I'm not claiming that local police are great. I just think that the situation is probably possible to improve, if we work strategically. BTW, in 2022 the Economist Intelligence Unit ranked US democracy above that of Belgium, Italy, Latvia, Panama, and Singapore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      > Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? No, they are mostly not controlled by anyone except themselves, and aren't accountable to anybody, because they can disobey and/or corruptly coerce and/or retaliate against people, including elected government officials, who try to hold them accountable, with no repercussions.
    - School-Cotton 3y ago
      > Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? Very imperfectly if at all.
mlrtime 3y ago
I see your point that it's the role of governing bodies to find solutions to complex issues raised by the public. However, isn't there also some responsibility on the part of the protestors to articulate what specific changes they'd like to see, rather than resorting to extreme actions like property destruction? After all, clear demands can make it easier for those in power to act effectively.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  while not everyone agreed on everything, there was unambiguous consensus to end the invincibility of corrupt cops engaging in police brutality (and to end the police brutality itself) that's a pretty clear problem for government officials to figure out how to solve

MrJohz 3y ago

> In particular the political process should work in reverse: people voice issues, and their governing bodies come up with viable solutions. That's their job. I get what you mean but the governing bodies of the people are the people. In a democracy, we are in charge of our own institutions, at least in theory. I agree that we can't lay the full burden for solving injustice on the people affected by that injustice, and I think finding solutions for injustice is something that everyone should take part in, and there is a particular responsibility for those with the most amount of power to act. But often the people most affected by injustice are the ones who can see the flaws in the existing system best, and who have the best ideas as to where a solution might come from.

School-Cotton 3y ago
The US is an extremely flawed democracy. If the US were a functional democracy then maybe popular will would control the police, but it’s not.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
  Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? Not sure the quality of US institutions at the national level is all that relevant. Note, I'm not claiming that local police are great. I just think that the situation is probably possible to improve, if we work strategically. BTW, in 2022 the Economist Intelligence Unit ranked US democracy above that of Belgium, Italy, Latvia, Panama, and Singapore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? No, they are mostly not controlled by anyone except themselves, and aren't accountable to anybody, because they can disobey and/or corruptly coerce and/or retaliate against people, including elected government officials, who try to hold them accountable, with no repercussions.
  - School-Cotton 3y ago
    > Local police are mostly controlled by local institutions, no? Very imperfectly if at all.

mlrtime 3y ago

I see your point that it's the role of governing bodies to find solutions to complex issues raised by the public. However, isn't there also some responsibility on the part of the protestors to articulate what specific changes they'd like to see, rather than resorting to extreme actions like property destruction? After all, clear demands can make it easier for those in power to act effectively.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
while not everyone agreed on everything, there was unambiguous consensus to end the invincibility of corrupt cops engaging in police brutality (and to end the police brutality itself) that's a pretty clear problem for government officials to figure out how to solve