5 ms·

Mazda's DMCA takedown kills a hobbyist's smart car API tool

83 points by DamonHD 3y ago

pipeline_peak 3y ago
If there’s any field for open source api’s it’s definitely not the automotive industry. Like what did you all expect? Lol
quantified 3y ago
Hardware orgs, such as auto manufacturers, are often poor software providers. This is sad.
- incahoots 3y ago
  it's not a bug, it's a feature! This might be a bit disingenuous but has any software in any car been worth the drive space it was installed on? The untold amounts of complaints just on the software from various auto manufacturers is incredibly concerning to the point that I soon drive a car from the 90s into dust before I attempt to drive something with a lagging interface, or a complete screen failure leaving the car inoperable. Some of the issues could be attributed to user error (working in IT I'm not stranger to that), but this push to screen everything is a huge step backwards in the automobile design philosophy.
  - NoPicklez 3y ago
    100%, car audio infotainment systems are rubbish. Even brand new cars of today have screen blackouts, resets and camera failures. The driver then having to deal with the dealer who has no idea how the fix the problem either until the manufacturer issues a fix. This why I'm a big fan of Apple CarPlay or Android Auto, depending on which flavour device you have.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >The untold amounts of complaints just on the software from various auto manufacturers is incredibly concerning to the point that I soon drive a car from the 90s into dust before I attempt to drive something with a lagging interface, or a complete screen failure leaving the car inoperable. I think all the negative online comments have clouded your perception of modern cars. The toyota rav4 is the best selling non-truck in the US in 2023. If you check their interior shot[1], there's a screen but all the essential functions have physical controls. The only reason you'd need to use the screen is if you want to access the built in navigation system or radio, but you were probably going to use google maps and spotify anyways. Meanwhile you get all the features that "a car from the 90s" doesn't have: rear camera, adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, automatic breaking, lane departure warnings, blind spot monitoring, and better fuel economy. [1] https://www.toyota.com/rav4/photo-gallery/section/interior/slide/5 https://www.toyota.com/rav4/photo-gallery/section/interior/s...
    - incahoots 3y ago
      That's for now, I think only a handful of autos still have physical controls but every year that number shrinks... SavageGeese on YT specifically points this out, and actually had a really great video on this very subject. >Better fuel economy Debatable, incredibly so. Vehicles have only gotten larger to side step the federal MPG mandate, so whilst it appears they're getting better gas mileage the reality is we've been stagnate since the 90s, per the UM report below. http://websites.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-5.pdf http://websites.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-5.pdf We could argue over emissions standards being much more stringent (and they have), but auto makers have sought to only embrace larger vehicles in lieu of proper fuel efficient development of ICE automobiles. Hybrids seem to be a stop gap, but R&D appears to have ceased on ICE in favor of EV. Currently I'm car-free, I was an auto enthusiast (built plenty of different cars) and what I see on the road currently only reinforces the idea that rather than build a better car, automakers seek to only build them larger and more reliant on technology that trails smart tech by 15 years. In the meantime, I'll keep riding motorcycles (not perfect either) and bicycles. I will say Ford releasing the Maverick was a bit of a wake up call that folks still want a truck, but not truck sized, and not getting truck MPGs.
    - dns_snek 3y ago
      Some would argue that rear cameras, adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, automatic braking, lane departure warnings and blind spot monitoring are just an unnecessary crutch that will break down, be expensive to fix, or even dangerously malfunction.
      - 10000truths 3y ago
        All those things are features that are non-critical to the vehicle's functionality, and manufacturers are competent enough to design and assemble those components to fail gracefully so that the car will continue to run.
  - duttonw 3y ago
    The lag in general auto dash's has been a problem even in 2014 models at least it stayed exactly the same. Sadly now its actually worse. (is a bit like iPhones, the software gets slower but you don't notice as the hardware got faster if you stay on the upgrade train) And with that said even Tesla can't get away from this, but its from their own doing. The 5+ year old cars have Atom CPU's for the infotainment which was zippy in the past but with new features being added. Those systems can't provide the parallel speeds now supplied on the new AMD CPU's and start to lose that instant feeling. How do I know, I test drove that last batch of Model S's on the 2nd hand market in Australia and the gui is not fluid and it shows when the owners were frustrated using it themselves as well as they all wanted the latest model.
chmod775 3y ago
It's always peak comedy when a company goes out of its way to shut down someone laboring to improve their products for free, in the process making their customer's experience worse and likely angering those customers. Stabbing yourself with a flourish and a bow. What sort of attitudes are off the leash, causing this, is never hard to imagine. User arathol on mazda3revolution.com has some interesting tidbits: > Mazda has been doing this for some time now with all their software, at least since 2017 when they issued new infotainment software to block the AIO tweaks and warnings about modifying their software. I don't think this is entirely from Mazda though. The .502 software was more about Johnson Controls, the developers of the software, having fits about people monkeying around with something that they considered proprietary. https://www.mazda3revolution.com/threads/mazda-dmca-takedown-of-pymazda-python-library.249121/ https://www.mazda3revolution.com/threads/mazda-dmca-takedown... I wonder who the developers of this particular software are.
- mdaniel 3y ago
  > It's always peak comedy when a company goes out of its way to shut down someone laboring to improve their products for free, in the process making their customer's experience worse and likely angering those customers. Relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37912861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37912861
wrboyce 3y ago
Previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220
- DamonHD 3y ago
  Thanks!
gymbeaux 3y ago
I think Mazda would rather us pay for their subscription connected car service, which they’re currently piloting for free for everyone. It lets me start, lock, unlock and see fuel/tire pressure info for my 2021 CX-30. Remote start is great to have, but how many of us will pay ~$5/mo for the privilege?
- Buttons840 3y ago
  Fewer than the number who would support regulation making this data available on a free and standard protocol.
- happytiger 3y ago
  A whole lot less once they realize that there was a free alternative that got killed. Boomers aren’t going to live forever and younger generations pay attention to these things. I wouldn’t buy a Mazda again based on this. I know it may not be oceans of people, but I used to really like Mazdas and am a former customer.
  - gymbeaux 3y ago
    This isn't going to drive me away from Mazda, rather the Lexus prices. I know inflation is partially to blame, but if I am dropping $35-40k on a vehicle, I want it to be a luxury brand.
  - BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
    I don't think this was a free alternative; It was a library for the same APIs the official app would use. If they add a subscription model it would (almost) certainly be server-side and you'd still need to be an authorized user to use the API. All they did was screw over existing owners / future subscribers.
- jshier 3y ago
  I've found Mazda's connected car service to suck, generally. 1. No climate control, so remote start is largely useless. 2. Remote start ends if the car loses cell connectivity for even a moment. So starting the car in my driveway may fail two minutes in. So even if I could control the climate (or remembered to set it before I shut off the car the last time I drove), it wouldn't matter since the car may just shut off. 3. When you remote start and then get into the car, the engine just shuts off again, forcing you to immediately start it back up. This is annoying and must be terrible for the car. 4. I have to relogin to the app practically every time I use it. So I would never pay for this.
squigz 3y ago
Here's the code - https://web.archive.org/web/20230310065424/https://github.com/home-assistant/core/tree/dev/homeassistant/components/mazda https://web.archive.org/web/20230310065424/https://github.co...
- theyeenzbeanz 3y ago
  It didn’t archive any of the files
  - mdaniel 3y ago
    I thought those DMCA nukes usually take down the forks, but it seems not this time: (e.g.) https://github.com/bdraco/home-assistant/tree/dev/homeassistant/components/mazda https://github.com/bdraco/home-assistant/tree/dev/homeassist...
sdflhasjd 3y ago
> "MNAO analyzed some of the code and determined that the code provides functionality same as what is currently in Apple App Store and Google Play App Store" Surely you cannot copyright "functionality" even in the US, is this not a bogus DMCA? Is there anything that average folk can do against these notices when they're sent to companies like GitHub?
- greyface- 3y ago
  > Is there anything that average folk can do against these notices when they're sent to companies like GitHub? They can file a counter-notice, commit to accepting service of process if the other party wants to sue, and wait 10-14 days. There's a guide at https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-policies/guide-to-submitting-a-dmca-counter-notice https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-polic... and there are plenty of example counter-notices in the https://github.com/github/dmca https://github.com/github/dmca repo.
- MerelyMortal 3y ago
  > Surely you cannot copyright "functionality" even in the US Not a lawyer, but my underatanding is "No." That is why you can find so many different "opoly" games that look very similar to Monopoly but do not use any of the same branded words or cornerspace graphics.
71a54xd 3y ago
I wonder when Comma AI is going to start being impacted by takedowns like this?

83 points by DamonHD 3y ago

If there’s any field for open source api’s it’s definitely not the automotive industry. Like what did you all expect? Lol

quantified 3y ago

Hardware orgs, such as auto manufacturers, are often poor software providers. This is sad.

incahoots 3y ago
it's not a bug, it's a feature! This might be a bit disingenuous but has any software in any car been worth the drive space it was installed on? The untold amounts of complaints just on the software from various auto manufacturers is incredibly concerning to the point that I soon drive a car from the 90s into dust before I attempt to drive something with a lagging interface, or a complete screen failure leaving the car inoperable. Some of the issues could be attributed to user error (working in IT I'm not stranger to that), but this push to screen everything is a huge step backwards in the automobile design philosophy.
- NoPicklez 3y ago
  100%, car audio infotainment systems are rubbish. Even brand new cars of today have screen blackouts, resets and camera failures. The driver then having to deal with the dealer who has no idea how the fix the problem either until the manufacturer issues a fix. This why I'm a big fan of Apple CarPlay or Android Auto, depending on which flavour device you have.
- gruez 3y ago
  >The untold amounts of complaints just on the software from various auto manufacturers is incredibly concerning to the point that I soon drive a car from the 90s into dust before I attempt to drive something with a lagging interface, or a complete screen failure leaving the car inoperable. I think all the negative online comments have clouded your perception of modern cars. The toyota rav4 is the best selling non-truck in the US in 2023. If you check their interior shot[1], there's a screen but all the essential functions have physical controls. The only reason you'd need to use the screen is if you want to access the built in navigation system or radio, but you were probably going to use google maps and spotify anyways. Meanwhile you get all the features that "a car from the 90s" doesn't have: rear camera, adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, automatic breaking, lane departure warnings, blind spot monitoring, and better fuel economy. [1] https://www.toyota.com/rav4/photo-gallery/section/interior/slide/5 https://www.toyota.com/rav4/photo-gallery/section/interior/s...
  - incahoots 3y ago
    That's for now, I think only a handful of autos still have physical controls but every year that number shrinks... SavageGeese on YT specifically points this out, and actually had a really great video on this very subject. >Better fuel economy Debatable, incredibly so. Vehicles have only gotten larger to side step the federal MPG mandate, so whilst it appears they're getting better gas mileage the reality is we've been stagnate since the 90s, per the UM report below. http://websites.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-5.pdf http://websites.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-5.pdf We could argue over emissions standards being much more stringent (and they have), but auto makers have sought to only embrace larger vehicles in lieu of proper fuel efficient development of ICE automobiles. Hybrids seem to be a stop gap, but R&D appears to have ceased on ICE in favor of EV. Currently I'm car-free, I was an auto enthusiast (built plenty of different cars) and what I see on the road currently only reinforces the idea that rather than build a better car, automakers seek to only build them larger and more reliant on technology that trails smart tech by 15 years. In the meantime, I'll keep riding motorcycles (not perfect either) and bicycles. I will say Ford releasing the Maverick was a bit of a wake up call that folks still want a truck, but not truck sized, and not getting truck MPGs.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    Some would argue that rear cameras, adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, automatic braking, lane departure warnings and blind spot monitoring are just an unnecessary crutch that will break down, be expensive to fix, or even dangerously malfunction.
    - 10000truths 3y ago
      All those things are features that are non-critical to the vehicle's functionality, and manufacturers are competent enough to design and assemble those components to fail gracefully so that the car will continue to run.
- duttonw 3y ago
  The lag in general auto dash's has been a problem even in 2014 models at least it stayed exactly the same. Sadly now its actually worse. (is a bit like iPhones, the software gets slower but you don't notice as the hardware got faster if you stay on the upgrade train) And with that said even Tesla can't get away from this, but its from their own doing. The 5+ year old cars have Atom CPU's for the infotainment which was zippy in the past but with new features being added. Those systems can't provide the parallel speeds now supplied on the new AMD CPU's and start to lose that instant feeling. How do I know, I test drove that last batch of Model S's on the 2nd hand market in Australia and the gui is not fluid and it shows when the owners were frustrated using it themselves as well as they all wanted the latest model.

chmod775 3y ago

It's always peak comedy when a company goes out of its way to shut down someone laboring to improve their products for free, in the process making their customer's experience worse and likely angering those customers. Stabbing yourself with a flourish and a bow. What sort of attitudes are off the leash, causing this, is never hard to imagine. User arathol on mazda3revolution.com has some interesting tidbits: > Mazda has been doing this for some time now with all their software, at least since 2017 when they issued new infotainment software to block the AIO tweaks and warnings about modifying their software. I don't think this is entirely from Mazda though. The .502 software was more about Johnson Controls, the developers of the software, having fits about people monkeying around with something that they considered proprietary. https://www.mazda3revolution.com/threads/mazda-dmca-takedown-of-pymazda-python-library.249121/ https://www.mazda3revolution.com/threads/mazda-dmca-takedown... I wonder who the developers of this particular software are.

mdaniel 3y ago
> It's always peak comedy when a company goes out of its way to shut down someone laboring to improve their products for free, in the process making their customer's experience worse and likely angering those customers. Relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37912861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37912861

wrboyce 3y ago

Previously discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220

DamonHD 3y ago
Thanks!

gymbeaux 3y ago

I think Mazda would rather us pay for their subscription connected car service, which they’re currently piloting for free for everyone. It lets me start, lock, unlock and see fuel/tire pressure info for my 2021 CX-30. Remote start is great to have, but how many of us will pay ~$5/mo for the privilege?

Buttons840 3y ago
Fewer than the number who would support regulation making this data available on a free and standard protocol.
happytiger 3y ago
A whole lot less once they realize that there was a free alternative that got killed. Boomers aren’t going to live forever and younger generations pay attention to these things. I wouldn’t buy a Mazda again based on this. I know it may not be oceans of people, but I used to really like Mazdas and am a former customer.
- gymbeaux 3y ago
  This isn't going to drive me away from Mazda, rather the Lexus prices. I know inflation is partially to blame, but if I am dropping $35-40k on a vehicle, I want it to be a luxury brand.
- BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
  I don't think this was a free alternative; It was a library for the same APIs the official app would use. If they add a subscription model it would (almost) certainly be server-side and you'd still need to be an authorized user to use the API. All they did was screw over existing owners / future subscribers.
jshier 3y ago
I've found Mazda's connected car service to suck, generally. 1. No climate control, so remote start is largely useless. 2. Remote start ends if the car loses cell connectivity for even a moment. So starting the car in my driveway may fail two minutes in. So even if I could control the climate (or remembered to set it before I shut off the car the last time I drove), it wouldn't matter since the car may just shut off. 3. When you remote start and then get into the car, the engine just shuts off again, forcing you to immediately start it back up. This is annoying and must be terrible for the car. 4. I have to relogin to the app practically every time I use it. So I would never pay for this.

squigz 3y ago

Here's the code - https://web.archive.org/web/20230310065424/https://github.com/home-assistant/core/tree/dev/homeassistant/components/mazda https://web.archive.org/web/20230310065424/https://github.co...

theyeenzbeanz 3y ago
It didn’t archive any of the files
- mdaniel 3y ago
  I thought those DMCA nukes usually take down the forks, but it seems not this time: (e.g.) https://github.com/bdraco/home-assistant/tree/dev/homeassistant/components/mazda https://github.com/bdraco/home-assistant/tree/dev/homeassist...

sdflhasjd 3y ago

> "MNAO analyzed some of the code and determined that the code provides functionality same as what is currently in Apple App Store and Google Play App Store" Surely you cannot copyright "functionality" even in the US, is this not a bogus DMCA? Is there anything that average folk can do against these notices when they're sent to companies like GitHub?

greyface- 3y ago
> Is there anything that average folk can do against these notices when they're sent to companies like GitHub? They can file a counter-notice, commit to accepting service of process if the other party wants to sue, and wait 10-14 days. There's a guide at https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-policies/guide-to-submitting-a-dmca-counter-notice https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/content-removal-polic... and there are plenty of example counter-notices in the https://github.com/github/dmca https://github.com/github/dmca repo.
MerelyMortal 3y ago
> Surely you cannot copyright "functionality" even in the US Not a lawyer, but my underatanding is "No." That is why you can find so many different "opoly" games that look very similar to Monopoly but do not use any of the same branded words or cornerspace graphics.

71a54xd 3y ago

I wonder when Comma AI is going to start being impacted by takedowns like this?