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Arguably it's less direct due to the superlatives and exclamations. For example: > Christ. That's literally the remap_file_pages() system call definition. No w

by thdc 3y ago

Arguably it's less direct due to the superlatives and exclamations. For example: > Christ. That's literally the remap_file_pages() system call definition. No way in hell does "ON_BEHALF_OF_KERNEL" make any sense in this context. This could be > That's the remap_file_pages() system call definition. "ON_BEHALF_OF_KERNEL" does not make any sense in this context. If someone I didn't know or was unfamiliar with gave me a review like this I'd frown, but since Torvalds is known for this then I'd shrug it off probably. It's a good, thorough review though.

jonathanyc 3y ago
And in spite of the superlatives and exclamations, the author still didn't seem to get the hint that they should maybe go back to the drawing board. See their post which Matt Wilcox is replying to. I've worked in environments where it was considered a little mean even to use the "request changes" button in GitHub, but it worked because people (1) got the hint when you left comments suggesting changes and (2) would be careful to address all of your suggestions before requesting review again. But I've also worked in an environment where people would try to sneak changes past you and then argue with you when they were caught. I don't think I've ever sworn in a code review comment but these days I can understand where Linus Torvalds is coming from. Things would be much nicer if people got hints and were careful, but we don't live in that world. My friend tried to use a credit card in Japan, and instead of saying "no" the shopkeeper just bowed and said "excuse me." Meanwhile yesterday in San Francisco I saw a customer arguing with the cashier for five minutes at McDonalds about whether or not they could use a coupon twice.
withinboredom 3y ago
The first is better, IMHO. No need to be so dry and boring in your second example. Also, in the first example, I know the reviewer is completely against my approach. I need some proper ammo to rebut with, or go back to the drawing board. In the second example, it could easily turn into a multi-day back-and-forth until one of us gives up.
- pests 3y ago
  Ah yes, the best way to enforce technology decisions is by insults and hostility.
  - falcor84 3y ago
    With Linux and git being probably the most widely adopted open source software projects ever, it would be a valid argument that Linus's approach is by historical proof "the best way".
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      This is a logical fallacy
      - sieabahlpark 3y ago
        [dead]
      - falcor84 3y ago
        Which fallacy?
        endisneigh 3y ago
        Selection bias
        withinboredom 3y ago
        I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that isn't a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is "A misconception resulting from flaw in reasoning, or a trick or illusion in thoughts that often succeeds in obfuscating facts/truth."[1] "Selection bias" isn't a recognized logical fallacy, in logical reasoning. "Selection bias" is a statistical bias in sampled data. They put forth a premise, "With Linux and git being probably the most widely adopted open source software projects ever" Then an inference, "Linus's approach is historical proof" And a conclusion, "is the best way [to review code]". Assuming we can accept the premise as true, you're left to attack the inference (whether or not Linus's approach is historical proof). You may disagree with the conclusion, but calling out a logical argument as a logical fallacy, and using that to dismiss the conclusion, is itself, a logical fallacy called a "fallacy fallacy"[2] [1]: https://www.logicalfallacies.org/ https://www.logicalfallacies.org/ [2]: https://www.logicalfallacies.org/fallacy-fallacy.html https://www.logicalfallacies.org/fallacy-fallacy.html
jjice 3y ago
I agree with the final sentiment but I do think you gave a good example of a more direct response. That said, there's something charming about seeing Torvalds's attitude come out. People really care about Linux and it warms my heart to see some passion.
penguin_booze 3y ago
Admittedly, the first is what runs in my head if I were reviewing a patch that touches something with which I'm intimately familiar. The second is how I'd consciously phrase it, because I myself prefer someone not tell me the first one. Maybe Linus doesn't do second takes (and that's not a secret).

by thdc 3y ago

jonathanyc 3y ago

And in spite of the superlatives and exclamations, the author still didn't seem to get the hint that they should maybe go back to the drawing board. See their post which Matt Wilcox is replying to. I've worked in environments where it was considered a little mean even to use the "request changes" button in GitHub, but it worked because people (1) got the hint when you left comments suggesting changes and (2) would be careful to address all of your suggestions before requesting review again. But I've also worked in an environment where people would try to sneak changes past you and then argue with you when they were caught. I don't think I've ever sworn in a code review comment but these days I can understand where Linus Torvalds is coming from. Things would be much nicer if people got hints and were careful, but we don't live in that world. My friend tried to use a credit card in Japan, and instead of saying "no" the shopkeeper just bowed and said "excuse me." Meanwhile yesterday in San Francisco I saw a customer arguing with the cashier for five minutes at McDonalds about whether or not they could use a coupon twice.

withinboredom 3y ago

The first is better, IMHO. No need to be so dry and boring in your second example. Also, in the first example, I know the reviewer is completely against my approach. I need some proper ammo to rebut with, or go back to the drawing board. In the second example, it could easily turn into a multi-day back-and-forth until one of us gives up.

pests 3y ago
Ah yes, the best way to enforce technology decisions is by insults and hostility.
- falcor84 3y ago
  With Linux and git being probably the most widely adopted open source software projects ever, it would be a valid argument that Linus's approach is by historical proof "the best way".
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    This is a logical fallacy
    - sieabahlpark 3y ago
      [dead]
    - falcor84 3y ago
      Which fallacy?
      - endisneigh 3y ago
        Selection bias
        withinboredom 3y ago
        I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that isn't a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is "A misconception resulting from flaw in reasoning, or a trick or illusion in thoughts that often succeeds in obfuscating facts/truth."[1] "Selection bias" isn't a recognized logical fallacy, in logical reasoning. "Selection bias" is a statistical bias in sampled data. They put forth a premise, "With Linux and git being probably the most widely adopted open source software projects ever" Then an inference, "Linus's approach is historical proof" And a conclusion, "is the best way [to review code]". Assuming we can accept the premise as true, you're left to attack the inference (whether or not Linus's approach is historical proof). You may disagree with the conclusion, but calling out a logical argument as a logical fallacy, and using that to dismiss the conclusion, is itself, a logical fallacy called a "fallacy fallacy"[2] [1]: https://www.logicalfallacies.org/ https://www.logicalfallacies.org/ [2]: https://www.logicalfallacies.org/fallacy-fallacy.html https://www.logicalfallacies.org/fallacy-fallacy.html

jjice 3y ago

I agree with the final sentiment but I do think you gave a good example of a more direct response. That said, there's something charming about seeing Torvalds's attitude come out. People really care about Linux and it warms my heart to see some passion.

penguin_booze 3y ago

Admittedly, the first is what runs in my head if I were reviewing a patch that touches something with which I'm intimately familiar. The second is how I'd consciously phrase it, because I myself prefer someone not tell me the first one. Maybe Linus doesn't do second takes (and that's not a secret).