6 ms·

In addition to your comment, what I find mind-boggling is how easily people swing between the two extremes of opinion: it seems every public figure must either

by the_af 3y ago

In addition to your comment, what I find mind-boggling is how easily people swing between the two extremes of opinion: it seems every public figure must either be adored and admired, or reviled and ostracized. People (myself included, I don't exclude myself from being human!) do not want to contemplate public figures as complex individuals with dark and bright aspects. It's always all or nothing. So Woody Allen went from being an adored auteur to someone who not only was declared guilty of a horrible crime in public opinion, but also people felt entitled to declare his cinema was never good to begin with (where were these people before Allen fell in disgrace? Nowhere. They only declared his movies trash once he fell in disgrace). Same with Feynman. Same with Asimov. Same with Picasso. And the list goes on forever. People cannot bear the thought that artists, scientists and public figures in general are real people, with flaws and all.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
I think something you're failing to account for in peoples' reactions these figures is that the relationship between their moral transgressions and their work is not spurious. Feynman was a notable scientist but he was also one of the most famous scientists, he was a great populizer of science especially later in life. Finding out he was a sex pest or womanizer or worse has tangible consequences to that role. Was he a good mentor in general, or only to women he wanted to fuck? Or only ones he didn't? Were there any women pushed out of science because of his inappropriate attention or advances? We now have to ask these questions, and their answers can retroactively change how we evaluate his later life's work as an advocate of science. Similarly woody allen makes movies that are compelling because of their portrayal of human connection and vulnerability. As you said, what woody allen is accused of is a great crime, far far beyond routine human flaws. It does change the context and the meaning of the movie to know that this is what its creator thinks of human connection as well. You can decide not to believe the allegations, but for people who do believe them I don't think it's an error or transgression for them to evaluate his movies in light of them. And it is certainly not true that no one criticized these figures before their "faults" were known. Orson Welles famously with woody allen, Picasso was not always revered, and I disliked feynman from reading his own memoirs. It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think.
- the_af 3y ago
  > It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think. Yes, this is a fair assessment. The criticisms are given voice and spread once the person falls in disgrace. They are sometimes declared "unpersons", which I find deeply irritating. I suppose this happens to artists or scientists nearer in time; nobody cares to censor/cancel a Greek philosopher if he abused boys, it's just a footnote in their biography.
  - monknomo 3y ago
    It might be different if you could go talk to the boys - with these modern folks you can often literally interview the victim(s) and I think that makes a difference for the reaction
    - the_af 3y ago
      Yes, this is a good point. Talking to victims or aggrieved parties is something ancient history denies us. On the other hand, what if we could -- would we cancel all those Greek philosophers, or artists and scientists of antiquity? Strike them from the classroom, or focus the lesson entirely on how bad they were as people? Would mankind be better if that were the case?
  - watwut 3y ago
    Then again, plenty of times they are not declared unpersons nor treated horribly. Oftentimes just mentioning that this or that person did something bad at some points is enough for everyone to get outrage over "how dare you to say that". As in, criticism is silenced until it breaks.
    - the_af 3y ago
      > It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think. I want to make clear that when someone commits a horrible crime (not a minor transgression) they should be held accountable. So rape/abuse/murder is horrible, being a bad husband/wife or an uncaring parent is bad but not "horrible", etc. Also, people are flawed, and everyone engages in bad behavior that wouldn't stand up to public criticism. Your mileage may vary, of course. What I object to is canceling a person's work because of alleged crimes. People confuse "I don't like what it's alleged this person did in their personal life" with "this is not relevant art/science, I wish cinemas/schools/museums didn't mention this person anymore".
andyjohnson0 3y ago
> People cannot bear the thought that artists, scientists and public figures in general are real people, with flaws and all. Possibly related to the Fundamental Attribution Error in psychology: "The fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or over-attribution effect) is the tendency for people to over-emphasize dispositional or personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing situational explanations." https://www.simplypsychology.org/fundamental-attribution.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/fundamental-attribution.htm...
- sanp 3y ago
  Yup. We judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions (Just keeping this mind helps me stay calm in traffic)
- nuancebydefault 3y ago
  I wonder if this deterministic labeling of persons as good/evil as a whole is what Nietsche meant with "slave morality"?
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> So Woody Allen went from being an adored auteur to someone who not only was declared guilty of a horrible crime in public opinion, but also people felt entitled to declare his cinema was never good to begin with To enjoy entertainment of anyone not a saint makes you a bad person. And I want to state emphatically for the record I am a good person. I believe in all the right things, and disbelieve all the wrong ones. When those things change next year or tomorrow, I too will change and forget that I ever believed otherwise.
- nuancebydefault 3y ago
  If I understand what you wrote correctly, you only enjoy entertainment of saints? Also, when you find out later they are not, you will change your opinion? It feels a bit off to me. People are not good or bad. First of all what is good or bad depends on culture/geography. Second, every person has many good and bad treats according to any culture.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    > Also, when you find out later they are not, you will change your opinion? Hardly. I always knew they weren't saints, and always disliked them for being Nazis. Bad people can't be talented or skilled. If they were, it would be as if the universe was condoning their behavior.
  - the_af 3y ago
    You are in agreement with the comment you're replying to. The commenter is using irony to make a point.
    - nuancebydefault 3y ago
      Somehow I felt it was too off to be serious, but it appears I still got fooled. :)
jimbob45 3y ago
Same with Asimov. What did Asimov ever do?
- the_af 3y ago
  He was reportedly very "gropey": https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/ https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-t... Excerpt: > "It is in this correspondence that we can find how the conrunners of the time treated Asimov’s harassing behavior. To be explicit, Asimov was well known for pinching the asses of women who were unlucky–or unwarned–enough to get on an elevator with him alone."
- fractallyte 3y ago
  https://lithub.com/what-to-make-of-isaac-asimov-sci-fi-giant-and-dirty-old-man/ https://lithub.com/what-to-make-of-isaac-asimov-sci-fi-giant... https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2020/01/08/isaac-asimov-prolific-author-even-more-prolific-sexual-assaulter/ https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2020/01/08/isaac-asimov-p... https://daily.jstor.org/asimovs-empire-asimovs-wall/ https://daily.jstor.org/asimovs-empire-asimovs-wall/ ...and those are just the first few that came up on Google. I'm too sad to look for more... :-(
  - the_af 3y ago
    I wouldn't be too sad though; that was my point. Asimov made many women uncomfortable with his behavior, yes. He was also an all-around friendly and approachable guy, a bright mind, one of the giants of sci-fi, and also a great science communicator. He had this flaw. It's on us to deal with it, and not let it mar his otherwise great memory. (It's not like he raped women either, however bad his behavior was. Not all sins are equal).
    - avani 3y ago
      To the majority of humans (women), he was distinctly not all around friendly and approachable. That is the point.

by the_af 3y ago

giraffe_lady 3y ago

I think something you're failing to account for in peoples' reactions these figures is that the relationship between their moral transgressions and their work is not spurious. Feynman was a notable scientist but he was also one of the most famous scientists, he was a great populizer of science especially later in life. Finding out he was a sex pest or womanizer or worse has tangible consequences to that role. Was he a good mentor in general, or only to women he wanted to fuck? Or only ones he didn't? Were there any women pushed out of science because of his inappropriate attention or advances? We now have to ask these questions, and their answers can retroactively change how we evaluate his later life's work as an advocate of science. Similarly woody allen makes movies that are compelling because of their portrayal of human connection and vulnerability. As you said, what woody allen is accused of is a great crime, far far beyond routine human flaws. It does change the context and the meaning of the movie to know that this is what its creator thinks of human connection as well. You can decide not to believe the allegations, but for people who do believe them I don't think it's an error or transgression for them to evaluate his movies in light of them. And it is certainly not true that no one criticized these figures before their "faults" were known. Orson Welles famously with woody allen, Picasso was not always revered, and I disliked feynman from reading his own memoirs. It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think.

the_af 3y ago
> It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think. Yes, this is a fair assessment. The criticisms are given voice and spread once the person falls in disgrace. They are sometimes declared "unpersons", which I find deeply irritating. I suppose this happens to artists or scientists nearer in time; nobody cares to censor/cancel a Greek philosopher if he abused boys, it's just a footnote in their biography.
- monknomo 3y ago
  It might be different if you could go talk to the boys - with these modern folks you can often literally interview the victim(s) and I think that makes a difference for the reaction
  - the_af 3y ago
    Yes, this is a good point. Talking to victims or aggrieved parties is something ancient history denies us. On the other hand, what if we could -- would we cancel all those Greek philosophers, or artists and scientists of antiquity? Strike them from the classroom, or focus the lesson entirely on how bad they were as people? Would mankind be better if that were the case?
- watwut 3y ago
  Then again, plenty of times they are not declared unpersons nor treated horribly. Oftentimes just mentioning that this or that person did something bad at some points is enough for everyone to get outrage over "how dare you to say that". As in, criticism is silenced until it breaks.
  - the_af 3y ago
    > It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think. I want to make clear that when someone commits a horrible crime (not a minor transgression) they should be held accountable. So rape/abuse/murder is horrible, being a bad husband/wife or an uncaring parent is bad but not "horrible", etc. Also, people are flawed, and everyone engages in bad behavior that wouldn't stand up to public criticism. Your mileage may vary, of course. What I object to is canceling a person's work because of alleged crimes. People confuse "I don't like what it's alleged this person did in their personal life" with "this is not relevant art/science, I wish cinemas/schools/museums didn't mention this person anymore".

andyjohnson0 3y ago

> People cannot bear the thought that artists, scientists and public figures in general are real people, with flaws and all. Possibly related to the Fundamental Attribution Error in psychology: "The fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or over-attribution effect) is the tendency for people to over-emphasize dispositional or personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing situational explanations." https://www.simplypsychology.org/fundamental-attribution.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/fundamental-attribution.htm...

sanp 3y ago
Yup. We judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions (Just keeping this mind helps me stay calm in traffic)
nuancebydefault 3y ago
I wonder if this deterministic labeling of persons as good/evil as a whole is what Nietsche meant with "slave morality"?

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

> So Woody Allen went from being an adored auteur to someone who not only was declared guilty of a horrible crime in public opinion, but also people felt entitled to declare his cinema was never good to begin with To enjoy entertainment of anyone not a saint makes you a bad person. And I want to state emphatically for the record I am a good person. I believe in all the right things, and disbelieve all the wrong ones. When those things change next year or tomorrow, I too will change and forget that I ever believed otherwise.

nuancebydefault 3y ago
If I understand what you wrote correctly, you only enjoy entertainment of saints? Also, when you find out later they are not, you will change your opinion? It feels a bit off to me. People are not good or bad. First of all what is good or bad depends on culture/geography. Second, every person has many good and bad treats according to any culture.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > Also, when you find out later they are not, you will change your opinion? Hardly. I always knew they weren't saints, and always disliked them for being Nazis. Bad people can't be talented or skilled. If they were, it would be as if the universe was condoning their behavior.
- the_af 3y ago
  You are in agreement with the comment you're replying to. The commenter is using irony to make a point.
  - nuancebydefault 3y ago
    Somehow I felt it was too off to be serious, but it appears I still got fooled. :)

jimbob45 3y ago

Same with Asimov. What did Asimov ever do?

the_af 3y ago
He was reportedly very "gropey": https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-that-anymore/ https://the-orbit.net/almostdiamonds/2012/09/09/we-dont-do-t... Excerpt: > "It is in this correspondence that we can find how the conrunners of the time treated Asimov’s harassing behavior. To be explicit, Asimov was well known for pinching the asses of women who were unlucky–or unwarned–enough to get on an elevator with him alone."
fractallyte 3y ago
https://lithub.com/what-to-make-of-isaac-asimov-sci-fi-giant-and-dirty-old-man/ https://lithub.com/what-to-make-of-isaac-asimov-sci-fi-giant... https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2020/01/08/isaac-asimov-prolific-author-even-more-prolific-sexual-assaulter/ https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2020/01/08/isaac-asimov-p... https://daily.jstor.org/asimovs-empire-asimovs-wall/ https://daily.jstor.org/asimovs-empire-asimovs-wall/ ...and those are just the first few that came up on Google. I'm too sad to look for more... :-(
- the_af 3y ago
  I wouldn't be too sad though; that was my point. Asimov made many women uncomfortable with his behavior, yes. He was also an all-around friendly and approachable guy, a bright mind, one of the giants of sci-fi, and also a great science communicator. He had this flaw. It's on us to deal with it, and not let it mar his otherwise great memory. (It's not like he raped women either, however bad his behavior was. Not all sins are equal).
  - avani 3y ago
    To the majority of humans (women), he was distinctly not all around friendly and approachable. That is the point.