7 ms·

I'm not here to shill for the police, but in my former city, it was not unusual for certain kinds of businesses which had a history of being the source of rowdy

I'm not here to shill for the police, but in my former city, it was not unusual for certain kinds of businesses which had a history of being the source of rowdy behavior to be required by the community board to take certain measures to prevent that. It didn't mean they had to hire former police, but they had to show preventative measures were taken above and beyond state level licenses requirements if the board, which had a right to refuse their liquor license, was fed up with the amount of police activity there. It's a valid response to say the board should not have had this much power, but the point is that it isn't necessarily a racket.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
I mean, you're basically describing hiring a bouncer. I've never heard of a bouncer being required, but that does make sense if otherwise they're calling the police all the time.
- Filligree 3y ago
  It makes sense even if they don't. Places like that have externalities, and they shouldn't be offloading their rowdiness onto people who live next door.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    I think the idea that the enforcers of law (the ones that show up in guns and armor) can compel people to hire them for security work is a very, very conflicted interest. Very mafia-like.
    - Filligree 3y ago
      Yes; the law should only allow them to require "a bouncer". Not one from a specific 'company'.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
Ajedi32 3y ago
Yeah, and that's where the crime angle to this comes into play. Are the businesses really the "source of rowdy behavior", or is it actually the people who frequent those particular establishments? And if the latter, shouldn't that be the city's responsibility to deal with those people to make sure they aren't able to continue to repeatedly act in a disruptive manner requiring a police response? Why are they making the businesses pay for private security? Though as others have pointed out, bouncers have been a thing forever, so maybe I'm off base here...
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Bouncers are there to keep your customers safe, so they don't go elsewhere and never come back. You don't need to mandate bars have bouncers. They want bouncers.
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    (so they dont lose their alcohol license)
- nanidin 3y ago
  There is a Walmart in my metro area that is responsible for like 80% of all police calls within their municipality. This is the same Walmart that leeches off society in other ways like paying sub-living wages so that employees need to rely on social safety nets to survive. I'm not sure if they have to hire private security, but this is a prime example of a business that should be securing itself or changing location.
  - NickC25 3y ago
    They should be mandated to hire private security. If they are utilizing the majority of the resources available but aren't willing to pay the real costs of that, well, they need to suck it up and pay.
    - ahtihn 3y ago
cool_dude85 3y ago
Let me guess - the honky tonk doesn't have to, but if you're booking rap acts....
- billy99k 3y ago
  which group has more crime/bad behavior on average? regardless of act, you ramp up security accordingly.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    Which "group" defines more crimes/bad behaviors on average? Maybe there's a correlation there.
  - burnished 3y ago
    You should look into overpolicing and how it impacts those summary statistics; in brief if you look you will find someone breaking a law but bad behavior in one group gets ignored as an exception whereas in another group each incident is treated as emblematic and needing strong corrective action. In my experience both groups are full of pretty similar young men, which makes questions like yours pretty obviously loaded; why are you expecting one to be measurably different?
    - billy99k 3y ago
      "You should look into over policing and how it impacts those summary statistics" This may have been the case 10 years ago, but we have started defunding the police in many major cities. Have we seen a change in crime stats? "if you look you will find someone breaking a law but bad behavior in one group gets ignored as an exception whereas in another group each incident is treated as emblematic and needing strong corrective action" I think if you look at what's actually happening, you might change your opinion on this. "In my experience both groups are full of pretty similar young men, which makes questions like yours pretty obviously loaded; why are you expecting one to be measurably different?" This may be your experience, but probably not reality. I don't really think they care about theory and statistics when there are shootings and violent behavior on certain nights of the week.
yohannparis 3y ago
I don't think you read the article, they were not force to provided better form of security to keep their licence, they were force to hire MPD during business hours. At high costs, under weird pretence of minimum numbers of hours, and most of the time were gone doing MPD work while being paid by the business... This is mafia behaviour.
- heisenbit 3y ago
  Mafia knows better than to leave such an obvious papertrail.
beeboobaa 3y ago
Sounds like victim blaming.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

I mean, you're basically describing hiring a bouncer. I've never heard of a bouncer being required, but that does make sense if otherwise they're calling the police all the time.

Filligree 3y ago
It makes sense even if they don't. Places like that have externalities, and they shouldn't be offloading their rowdiness onto people who live next door.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  I think the idea that the enforcers of law (the ones that show up in guns and armor) can compel people to hire them for security work is a very, very conflicted interest. Very mafia-like.
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Yes; the law should only allow them to require "a bouncer". Not one from a specific 'company'.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

Ajedi32 3y ago

Yeah, and that's where the crime angle to this comes into play. Are the businesses really the "source of rowdy behavior", or is it actually the people who frequent those particular establishments? And if the latter, shouldn't that be the city's responsibility to deal with those people to make sure they aren't able to continue to repeatedly act in a disruptive manner requiring a police response? Why are they making the businesses pay for private security? Though as others have pointed out, bouncers have been a thing forever, so maybe I'm off base here...

robertlagrant 3y ago
Bouncers are there to keep your customers safe, so they don't go elsewhere and never come back. You don't need to mandate bars have bouncers. They want bouncers.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  (so they dont lose their alcohol license)
nanidin 3y ago
There is a Walmart in my metro area that is responsible for like 80% of all police calls within their municipality. This is the same Walmart that leeches off society in other ways like paying sub-living wages so that employees need to rely on social safety nets to survive. I'm not sure if they have to hire private security, but this is a prime example of a business that should be securing itself or changing location.
- NickC25 3y ago
  They should be mandated to hire private security. If they are utilizing the majority of the resources available but aren't willing to pay the real costs of that, well, they need to suck it up and pay.
  - ahtihn 3y ago

cool_dude85 3y ago

Let me guess - the honky tonk doesn't have to, but if you're booking rap acts....

billy99k 3y ago
which group has more crime/bad behavior on average? regardless of act, you ramp up security accordingly.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Which "group" defines more crimes/bad behaviors on average? Maybe there's a correlation there.
- burnished 3y ago
  You should look into overpolicing and how it impacts those summary statistics; in brief if you look you will find someone breaking a law but bad behavior in one group gets ignored as an exception whereas in another group each incident is treated as emblematic and needing strong corrective action. In my experience both groups are full of pretty similar young men, which makes questions like yours pretty obviously loaded; why are you expecting one to be measurably different?
  - billy99k 3y ago
    "You should look into over policing and how it impacts those summary statistics" This may have been the case 10 years ago, but we have started defunding the police in many major cities. Have we seen a change in crime stats? "if you look you will find someone breaking a law but bad behavior in one group gets ignored as an exception whereas in another group each incident is treated as emblematic and needing strong corrective action" I think if you look at what's actually happening, you might change your opinion on this. "In my experience both groups are full of pretty similar young men, which makes questions like yours pretty obviously loaded; why are you expecting one to be measurably different?" This may be your experience, but probably not reality. I don't really think they care about theory and statistics when there are shootings and violent behavior on certain nights of the week.

yohannparis 3y ago

I don't think you read the article, they were not force to provided better form of security to keep their licence, they were force to hire MPD during business hours. At high costs, under weird pretence of minimum numbers of hours, and most of the time were gone doing MPD work while being paid by the business... This is mafia behaviour.

heisenbit 3y ago
Mafia knows better than to leave such an obvious papertrail.

beeboobaa 3y ago

Sounds like victim blaming.