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This doesn’t really give any examples of what working conditions are bad at Tesla that are causing the strike

londons_explore 3y ago
I think there are no specific grievances - the grievance is because there isn't a collective agreement in place. I would guess hardly any employees will strike, because a collective agreement would probably not involve any stock options/RSU's at all.
- Tryk 3y ago
  Collective agreement is a floor. It is a contract which guarantees lower bounds on wages, vacation days, notice periods etc. There is nothing preventing a company from going beyond the collective agreement to provide additional benefits to their employees. For instance, Sweden does not have a minimum wage. Instead we have collective agreements which stipulate these issues.
  - adventured 3y ago
    So why doesn't Sweden simplify their labor market by figuring out a reasonable lower boundary on collective agreements and installing a minimum wage? That seems particularly backwards on their part as a system failure. It would simplify their economy, remove inefficiency and benefit everyone - the sole possible arguments against it would require one being in favor of inefficient bureaucracy or abusing workers with lower wages. If you install a reasonable minimum wage, it increases the freedom in the labor market by reducing the chains of collective agreements. It gives employees more options, flexibility, and power of self determination which can only be to their benefit.
    - alphager 3y ago
      There's no reasonable minimum wage. A minimum wage that would be appropriate for restaurants is nonsensical for electricians. The swedish model basically sets minimum wage by sector. Much more tailored to the employers and employees.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > The swedish model basically sets minimum wage by sector. Much more tailored to the employers and employees. But this is the same argument for why there shouldn't be one at all. One of the major problems with the minimum wage in the US is that it de facto destroys training programs for entry-level employees. You could go to a school and pay them money to be trained or go to Walmart and do unskilled labor for low wages. But if you want to go to an employer and spend 40 hours there of which half is working and half is learning, what's the appropriate wage for that? You might very well should be paying them -- they're getting as yet still unskilled labor and you're getting qualified to do a job that would ultimately pay above-median wages that you might otherwise pay $30,000/year in tuition for. Taking that deal with them paying you $2/hour could be a bargain. But not if it's prohibited by law. Meanwhile someone could then offer $2/hour for an ordinary job, but who is going to take them up on that for no countervailing benefit when other employers pay more? It's the same reason 98% of people are paid more than the existing minimum wage despite no legal requirement to do so.
        londons_explore 3y ago
        And this is exactly why economists wouldn't have a minimum wage in their economic utopia.
- pelorat 3y ago
  Literally no one in Sweden receives stock options as a form of compensation. Over 90% of the workforce is unionized. The ones that are not are basically working single employee companies and some tech companies.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    But tesla employees in sweden do...
    - adventured 3y ago
      Don't worry, Tesla stock has only gone up ~2,000% in the last four years, what could anyone possibly have wanted with stock options in that enterprise.
      - FireBeyond 3y ago
        I'm skeptical about Tesla Sweden employees getting stock options for US stocks. That seems odd. And I don't read enough Swedish to see whether they're listed on the Swedish stock exchange, but it doesn't appear so.
    - dagw 3y ago
      Do they? Do you have any source for this, as I would be very surprised if it was true. Hell I'd surprised to learn that Tesla pays mechanics at their service centres in US in stock options.
Tryk 3y ago
From the article: "Collective agreements are the basis of the Swedish labour market model. This means that the trade unions and the employers' organizations determine the rules of the game in the labour market, without interference from the state and politicians. In Sweden, approximately nine out of ten workers are covered by collective agreements. The terms of the collective agreement include wages, form of employment, occupational pension, working hours, vacations, and periods of notice. Thus, the employers benefit from industry-specific, long-term, and stable ground rules. "
samsari 3y ago
They go into details [here](https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tesla/darfor-tvingas-if-metall-att-strejka/ https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tesla/darfor-tvingas-if-met...) (only in Swedish unfortunately). Basically they say that despite repeated attempts to negotiate a collective agreement Tesla employees have fewer guarantees, lower salaries, and fewer prospects compared to members at other companies with such agreements.
dagw 3y ago
The Swedish article does. Some things mentioned are not a sufficient pension plan, lack of insurance covering loss of pay due to long term illness or injury, life insurance, the right for annual wage renegotiation and the right to work part time. They also claim that Tesla is paying a below average wage.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > They also claim that Tesla is paying a below average wage. It's hard to understand this. Why take the job if you don't like the pay? Taking the job at a certain wage and then striking seems the wrong way to go about things. Can anyone who knows the system explain this a little more?
  - nerdawson 3y ago
    Agreed. If Tesla create new jobs and they pay below average wages, they won't attract workers from other companies. It'll also be harder to retain staff. Surely they'd move towards the average in order to operate normally rather than being forced there by some collective work agreement.
    - IntelMiner 3y ago
      From my understanding of the union model in the Nordic countries, the intention is to push the business to be better, not simply a game of competing adversarial interests
  - eddtries 3y ago
    There isn't a legal minimum wage in Sweden, it's collectively argued for by the unions. It's pretty rare to find a company paying poorly against the market in Sweden.
  - Tryk 3y ago
    That a valid point, in a perfect world no one would choose to work for a company that pays substandard wages or offers inadequate benefits. But as it stands people need money to pay for food and housing, which can put them in a disadvantageous bargaining position. With Universal Basic Income perhaps this could be avoided.

I think there are no specific grievances - the grievance is because there isn't a collective agreement in place. I would guess hardly any employees will strike, because a collective agreement would probably not involve any stock options/RSU's at all.

Tryk 3y ago
Collective agreement is a floor. It is a contract which guarantees lower bounds on wages, vacation days, notice periods etc. There is nothing preventing a company from going beyond the collective agreement to provide additional benefits to their employees. For instance, Sweden does not have a minimum wage. Instead we have collective agreements which stipulate these issues.
- adventured 3y ago
  So why doesn't Sweden simplify their labor market by figuring out a reasonable lower boundary on collective agreements and installing a minimum wage? That seems particularly backwards on their part as a system failure. It would simplify their economy, remove inefficiency and benefit everyone - the sole possible arguments against it would require one being in favor of inefficient bureaucracy or abusing workers with lower wages. If you install a reasonable minimum wage, it increases the freedom in the labor market by reducing the chains of collective agreements. It gives employees more options, flexibility, and power of self determination which can only be to their benefit.
  - alphager 3y ago
    There's no reasonable minimum wage. A minimum wage that would be appropriate for restaurants is nonsensical for electricians. The swedish model basically sets minimum wage by sector. Much more tailored to the employers and employees.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > The swedish model basically sets minimum wage by sector. Much more tailored to the employers and employees. But this is the same argument for why there shouldn't be one at all. One of the major problems with the minimum wage in the US is that it de facto destroys training programs for entry-level employees. You could go to a school and pay them money to be trained or go to Walmart and do unskilled labor for low wages. But if you want to go to an employer and spend 40 hours there of which half is working and half is learning, what's the appropriate wage for that? You might very well should be paying them -- they're getting as yet still unskilled labor and you're getting qualified to do a job that would ultimately pay above-median wages that you might otherwise pay $30,000/year in tuition for. Taking that deal with them paying you $2/hour could be a bargain. But not if it's prohibited by law. Meanwhile someone could then offer $2/hour for an ordinary job, but who is going to take them up on that for no countervailing benefit when other employers pay more? It's the same reason 98% of people are paid more than the existing minimum wage despite no legal requirement to do so.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        And this is exactly why economists wouldn't have a minimum wage in their economic utopia.
pelorat 3y ago
Literally no one in Sweden receives stock options as a form of compensation. Over 90% of the workforce is unionized. The ones that are not are basically working single employee companies and some tech companies.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  But tesla employees in sweden do...
  - adventured 3y ago
    Don't worry, Tesla stock has only gone up ~2,000% in the last four years, what could anyone possibly have wanted with stock options in that enterprise.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      I'm skeptical about Tesla Sweden employees getting stock options for US stocks. That seems odd. And I don't read enough Swedish to see whether they're listed on the Swedish stock exchange, but it doesn't appear so.
  - dagw 3y ago
    Do they? Do you have any source for this, as I would be very surprised if it was true. Hell I'd surprised to learn that Tesla pays mechanics at their service centres in US in stock options.

Tryk 3y ago

From the article: "Collective agreements are the basis of the Swedish labour market model. This means that the trade unions and the employers' organizations determine the rules of the game in the labour market, without interference from the state and politicians. In Sweden, approximately nine out of ten workers are covered by collective agreements. The terms of the collective agreement include wages, form of employment, occupational pension, working hours, vacations, and periods of notice. Thus, the employers benefit from industry-specific, long-term, and stable ground rules. "

samsari 3y ago

They go into details [here](https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tesla/darfor-tvingas-if-metall-att-strejka/ https://www.ifmetall.se/aktuellt/tesla/darfor-tvingas-if-met...) (only in Swedish unfortunately). Basically they say that despite repeated attempts to negotiate a collective agreement Tesla employees have fewer guarantees, lower salaries, and fewer prospects compared to members at other companies with such agreements.

dagw 3y ago

The Swedish article does. Some things mentioned are not a sufficient pension plan, lack of insurance covering loss of pay due to long term illness or injury, life insurance, the right for annual wage renegotiation and the right to work part time. They also claim that Tesla is paying a below average wage.

robertlagrant 3y ago
> They also claim that Tesla is paying a below average wage. It's hard to understand this. Why take the job if you don't like the pay? Taking the job at a certain wage and then striking seems the wrong way to go about things. Can anyone who knows the system explain this a little more?
- nerdawson 3y ago
  Agreed. If Tesla create new jobs and they pay below average wages, they won't attract workers from other companies. It'll also be harder to retain staff. Surely they'd move towards the average in order to operate normally rather than being forced there by some collective work agreement.
  - IntelMiner 3y ago
    From my understanding of the union model in the Nordic countries, the intention is to push the business to be better, not simply a game of competing adversarial interests
- eddtries 3y ago
  There isn't a legal minimum wage in Sweden, it's collectively argued for by the unions. It's pretty rare to find a company paying poorly against the market in Sweden.
- Tryk 3y ago
  That a valid point, in a perfect world no one would choose to work for a company that pays substandard wages or offers inadequate benefits. But as it stands people need money to pay for food and housing, which can put them in a disadvantageous bargaining position. With Universal Basic Income perhaps this could be avoided.