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> could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. No data point other than every guy that I know who has close friend girls, never had

> could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. No data point other than every guy that I know who has close friend girls, never had problems with masculinity or something. And the opposite is true as well. Feels more probable that it's the other way around. Those that don't have problems with their (toxic) masculinity can likely maintain platonic relationships with any gender.

63 3y ago
I'll take the middle ground and say I think it's more of a vicious cycle. Grow up in a dysfunctional environment and develop a bad concept of other people and of masculinity and it becomes harder and harder to break out of that as you age. Eventually someone has to do a lot of emotional work to support you while you figure out how to treat other people and yourself. A lot of times I think if it's caught early by someone with enough emotional intelligence and a little bit of capacity to forgive you and tell you when you're being a jerk, you can break out of it while young and continue to maintain healthy relationships going forward. Alternatively you get more and more isolated as you age and no one around is willing or able to help you and you end up pretty bad off. I'd consider myself in the first group but I definitely know a lot of men who are in the second group, or at least on their way there. Men's mental health is a big deal and I think it's only getting worse. I don't know how to fix it though
- oldpersonintx 3y ago
  > I don't know how to fix it though Here's a start: don't simultaneously pulverize young men with progressive dogma that vilifies them while simultaneously desensitizing them to violence
  - germinalphrase 3y ago
    I grew up in a small, Midwestern town. Distinctly conservative. These same problems existed despite there being a more direct, simple conception of masculinity (and violence was, if anything, more normalized). Your position is a contemporary cultural lightning rod, but I’m not immediately convinced.
    - userinanother 3y ago
      Do you think it’s a evolutionary competition thing where older men somewhat intentionally confuse younger males to slow them down in the biological competition for mates
      - kredd 3y ago
        Not everything in the world is there to “get you”. Men who have friend girls tend to have much easier time finding “mates” in my circles. Again no citations, just observations. And it kinda passes the smell test, as it’s so much easier to talk to opposite genders when you somewhat know what’s going on in their lives.
  - cjohnson318 3y ago
    > pulverize young men with progressive dogma that vilifies them Lol, having been a young man at one time, young men need MORE reality checks, not fewer. You have to learn that your actions have real consequences, that "pretty sure" isn't enough when there are real stakes, that "luck" and "fair" are meaningless, that you're not entitled to anything from anyone, and that you have to earn respect from people for them to take you seriously. If that's considered "pulverizing them with progressive dogma", then I'm all for it.
    - sethammons 3y ago
      I think the progressive dogma is not "actions have consequences" -- dads have been letting their kids put pennies in light sockets for decades and pissing off the wrong person can get you punched in the mouth. The problem is that that young men are told they are bad, not worthy, animals, sex crazed, not to be trusted, are likely to abuse children or woman, are less intelligent, are only worth their ability to provide, should not have emotions, should know (naturally) how to be good at physical activities, should be logical, and that they should not complain. Suck it up, buttercup. They are expected to behave like well behaved girls/woman. Sit quietly in class, don't make a ruckus. That is the progressive dogma I'm seeing and have experienced. It doesn't help when people like you, CJ, laugh it off. "Suck it up, buttercup." For what it is worth, I know _zero_ men who feel they are entitled to a woman's body or whatever you have in your imagination. The closest to entitlement I see is men wanting a job and to be able to provide. You are feeding into the same dogma. There are real issues that drive depression and suicide in men.
      - cjohnson318 3y ago
        > They are expected to behave like well behaved girls/woman. Sit quietly in class, don't make a ruckus. That is the progressive dogma I'm seeing and have experienced. This is an astonishingly low bar, and not progressive dogma at all. > I know _zero_ men who feel they are entitled to a woman's body So what, the fact that you don't personally know a rapist is irrelevant. If a woman is sexually harassed or assaulted you can be 99.99% certain she was accosted by a man. If any crime at all is committed, 9 out of 10 times it's perpetrated by a man. I had to start explaining to my kids at age 3 that they have to be super extra careful around men, and never go alone with a man anywhere. I have to explain that yeah, they can do very bad things to you, and there's almost nothing you can do back. My girls have to live in, and navigate a world where they can be coerced by any given man, at any given time. So yeah, suck it up buttercup. Boys and men should behave like well behaved girls and women. Not sure what kind of Lord of the Flies fantasy you're trying to sign us all up for.
kredd 3y ago
I should’ve added growing up part. Like I grew up with friends who are girls and guys, and always had positive reassurance from my surroundings that it’s the correct way of doing things. But I agree, it’s like a skill in general — as I grew up with friend girls, I never had problems maintaining platonic relationships with either group of people.
ckyngcybra 3y ago
[flagged]
- yetihehe 3y ago
  One of your other comments in "Writing down unfiltered thoughts enhances self-knowledge": > I started doing this like 3 years ago. Actually have like 30+ 100page sketchbooks filled so far. Keep meaning to catalogue it all, but I keep adding to it instead. I think maybe you should actually speak with someone (actual professional therapist), you look like you're on a path to become toxic yourself. I'm not telling you this to mock you, it looks like this from your comments and you should probably get help before you still can.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ckyngcybra 3y ago
    [dead]
- easyThrowaway 3y ago
  As a french comedian once said "You could be right , but we came a bit too late to put the Homo Sapiens on trial".

63 3y ago

I'll take the middle ground and say I think it's more of a vicious cycle. Grow up in a dysfunctional environment and develop a bad concept of other people and of masculinity and it becomes harder and harder to break out of that as you age. Eventually someone has to do a lot of emotional work to support you while you figure out how to treat other people and yourself. A lot of times I think if it's caught early by someone with enough emotional intelligence and a little bit of capacity to forgive you and tell you when you're being a jerk, you can break out of it while young and continue to maintain healthy relationships going forward. Alternatively you get more and more isolated as you age and no one around is willing or able to help you and you end up pretty bad off. I'd consider myself in the first group but I definitely know a lot of men who are in the second group, or at least on their way there. Men's mental health is a big deal and I think it's only getting worse. I don't know how to fix it though

oldpersonintx 3y ago
> I don't know how to fix it though Here's a start: don't simultaneously pulverize young men with progressive dogma that vilifies them while simultaneously desensitizing them to violence
- germinalphrase 3y ago
  I grew up in a small, Midwestern town. Distinctly conservative. These same problems existed despite there being a more direct, simple conception of masculinity (and violence was, if anything, more normalized). Your position is a contemporary cultural lightning rod, but I’m not immediately convinced.
  - userinanother 3y ago
    Do you think it’s a evolutionary competition thing where older men somewhat intentionally confuse younger males to slow them down in the biological competition for mates
    - kredd 3y ago
      Not everything in the world is there to “get you”. Men who have friend girls tend to have much easier time finding “mates” in my circles. Again no citations, just observations. And it kinda passes the smell test, as it’s so much easier to talk to opposite genders when you somewhat know what’s going on in their lives.
- cjohnson318 3y ago
  > pulverize young men with progressive dogma that vilifies them Lol, having been a young man at one time, young men need MORE reality checks, not fewer. You have to learn that your actions have real consequences, that "pretty sure" isn't enough when there are real stakes, that "luck" and "fair" are meaningless, that you're not entitled to anything from anyone, and that you have to earn respect from people for them to take you seriously. If that's considered "pulverizing them with progressive dogma", then I'm all for it.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    I think the progressive dogma is not "actions have consequences" -- dads have been letting their kids put pennies in light sockets for decades and pissing off the wrong person can get you punched in the mouth. The problem is that that young men are told they are bad, not worthy, animals, sex crazed, not to be trusted, are likely to abuse children or woman, are less intelligent, are only worth their ability to provide, should not have emotions, should know (naturally) how to be good at physical activities, should be logical, and that they should not complain. Suck it up, buttercup. They are expected to behave like well behaved girls/woman. Sit quietly in class, don't make a ruckus. That is the progressive dogma I'm seeing and have experienced. It doesn't help when people like you, CJ, laugh it off. "Suck it up, buttercup." For what it is worth, I know _zero_ men who feel they are entitled to a woman's body or whatever you have in your imagination. The closest to entitlement I see is men wanting a job and to be able to provide. You are feeding into the same dogma. There are real issues that drive depression and suicide in men.
    - cjohnson318 3y ago
      > They are expected to behave like well behaved girls/woman. Sit quietly in class, don't make a ruckus. That is the progressive dogma I'm seeing and have experienced. This is an astonishingly low bar, and not progressive dogma at all. > I know _zero_ men who feel they are entitled to a woman's body So what, the fact that you don't personally know a rapist is irrelevant. If a woman is sexually harassed or assaulted you can be 99.99% certain she was accosted by a man. If any crime at all is committed, 9 out of 10 times it's perpetrated by a man. I had to start explaining to my kids at age 3 that they have to be super extra careful around men, and never go alone with a man anywhere. I have to explain that yeah, they can do very bad things to you, and there's almost nothing you can do back. My girls have to live in, and navigate a world where they can be coerced by any given man, at any given time. So yeah, suck it up buttercup. Boys and men should behave like well behaved girls and women. Not sure what kind of Lord of the Flies fantasy you're trying to sign us all up for.

kredd 3y ago

I should’ve added growing up part. Like I grew up with friends who are girls and guys, and always had positive reassurance from my surroundings that it’s the correct way of doing things. But I agree, it’s like a skill in general — as I grew up with friend girls, I never had problems maintaining platonic relationships with either group of people.

ckyngcybra 3y ago

[flagged]

yetihehe 3y ago
One of your other comments in "Writing down unfiltered thoughts enhances self-knowledge": > I started doing this like 3 years ago. Actually have like 30+ 100page sketchbooks filled so far. Keep meaning to catalogue it all, but I keep adding to it instead. I think maybe you should actually speak with someone (actual professional therapist), you look like you're on a path to become toxic yourself. I'm not telling you this to mock you, it looks like this from your comments and you should probably get help before you still can.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ckyngcybra 3y ago
  [dead]
easyThrowaway 3y ago
As a french comedian once said "You could be right , but we came a bit too late to put the Homo Sapiens on trial".