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The importance of handwriting is now better understood
- nerdyadventurer 3y agoNot strictly related, but I find writing things down using pen or pencil more gratifying than keyboard? Does anyone feel the same? May this have something to do with my ADHD?
- cratermoon 3y agohttps://archive.ph/q0uAI https://archive.ph/q0uAI
- kukrak 3y agoHi, The website does not load - I checked on Firefox, Chrome and Edge.
- inciampati 3y agoDepends on region. It's blocked in Europe for instance.
- yorwba 3y agoMaybe you're using Cloudflare DNS https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828317
- cpach 3y agoOne can also try with alternative URLs: https://archive.today/q0uAI https://archive.today/q0uAI, https://archive.is/q0uAI https://archive.is/q0uAI
- kirilltkachev 3y agoThanks! Works for me on iOS 16.6.1/Firefox Focus
- hknmtt 3y agoI have started to journal last month. I came to it through pens when I randomly decided to find a good pen when I got interested in it through some youtube videos(wow, YT actually working as intended, for once). To anyone interested, Pentel Energel 0.7mm is the best gel pen in the entire world, hands down. For oil-based ink, it would be Uniball Jetstream, i guess(i am gel guy). I always wanted to journal and thought it would be great to be able to read my worldviews, problems and daily life from years ago. But I just never did. Anyway, second month in, I must say, i love it. Not because of writing about some interesting philosophical topics, but rather because it allows the brain to dump all that chaos out(onto the paper) and allows me to focus more or just be chill in general. It literally frees your thinking. Like clearing up your RAM. I would never thought this would be the main effect but it is. If anyone wants to try, I recommend getting a notebook with 100gsm blank paper. They are hard to get though. Mostly you will find either dotted paper or 70-80gsm. Do not compromise on the density, dots vs lines vs grid vs blank is personal preference. Preferable is black pen over blue one, but again, PP. Blank pages impose no restrictions on you in regards to formatting though. There are well price notebooks on aliexpress, look for dot ding, legendary notebooks or paperideas. Soft or hard cover is personal preference as well. Format, A5 is the best/most practical. If you go with A6, note that most items are actually close to A7 so make sure you buy a correctly sized one. And smooth PU leather cover will catch fingerprints, so go mesh or rougher PU surface. As for hand writing, the slower you write, the prettier it will be. You have to find your own tempo where you are satisfied with speed and the look of the letters.
- wateralien 3y ago> Pentel Energel 0.7mm is the best gel pen in the entire world I love definitive reviews like this.
- hknmtt 3y agoI tried Zebra Sarasa, Pentel Energel, Pilot G-2, Comix, Bic Gelocity, Bic Gelocity Quickdry(indeed they are very different inks), Muji, Sharpie S-Gel, Unibal Signo,... probably even more, but Energel indeed is in a league of its own. I would put Bic Gelocity Quickdry as close second. Which surprised me. Though their pen cases suck(rattling noise while writing, changing writing angle can mitigate this). Also not all tip sizes are equal. Pilot G-2 0.7mm writes like Pentel 0.5mm for example. You have to find the one you like the best and it mostly comes down to your preferred tip size. To me, 0.5mm or 0.35mm will always be scratchy, no matter how smooth the ink is. 1mm can be good but 0.7mm is just the sweet spot for me. Also not all black are equal. I think Zebra wins here. Uniball is the worst(can become almost gray). YMMV.
- silcoon 3y agoI've direct experience on the power of handwriting to memorise concepts. When at the UNI, I was studying CS (while working part-time) less than 10 ya, and classes where full of laptops. I was take notes during lectures using only pen and paper and similarly I was taking my notes about the main concepts from the courses books. Then I was re-writing them again in a more summarised way, and then underline this notes and study all together. The power of handwriting is real and I'm still taking notes and keeping a journal nowadays. It's sad that this incredible ability of our brain to learn concepts from the small movement of our hands, probably sculpted by our evolution, is going to get lost in future generations. This is because companies are making deals with schools to provide them software and devices. In a better world the school system would be one of the top 2 priority of every country, and receive adeguate public investments to don't have to adapt their education systems at companies product, to satisfy the greediness of entrepreneurs and investors. Don't abandon pen and paper, don't regress human brain capacity.
- lifthrasiir 3y agoI wonder if the key is not really handwriting but rather a deliberate summarization, because I always used a computer to do that. I did have a printout of my own summary, of course, so papers may have also helped as well. (I also tended to walk around and mumble a lot when I really need to tackle a hard problem in my head, but not when studying.)
- m463 3y agoI wonder too. I remember doing python the hard way years ago, which encouraged you to type in the example python programs and run them yourself. It made a definite difference to sort of deliberately slow down and absorb during the exercise.
- RetroTechie 3y agoThat's nothing. Try handcoding machine code some time! Using only pen, paper & cpu datasheet. ;-) If you feel generous, throw in a calculator for offsets or hex/dec conversions etc. If I grow old & senile some day, I'll forget how to wipe my ass before the last Z80 mnemonic slips from my mind.
- trimble_tromble 3y agoThe article makes it sound as if the benefit of handwriting vs. typing is a settled matter. But a recent metaanalysis finds no overall benefit of handwriting over typing: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361476X21000849 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361476X2...
- woolion 3y agoThank you for this link! I cannot access the paper right now, but the abstract mentions that most research might have been confounded by the distractions provided by computers rather that by typing/handwriting. Which is actually a big problem, but suggests that there is a need for better tools --for example support of 'activities' at the Desktop Environment level, such as KDE, which might only give access to a subset of the available applications. This would allow one to have archived and searchable notes typed at full speed --rather than the slow handwriting which might be hard on the wrists-- and not suffer from the distraction problem. I would even go one step further: while I was translating a book, I used a dictionary on my computer to check some words from time to time. Nowadays I would just use wiktionary to do so, but that means that google might suck you into a rabbit hole at the first failing of will; it would be even better to have the ability to block any other sites when in this activity.
- seec 3y agoYeah it makes no sense that it would. It's probably measuring secondary effects like effort put in to take the notes and tools proficiency. Most peoples, even "digital natives" are much worse at inputting freeform information on a computer in the first place. The hardware/software to make this possible has only been recently available. Basically before tablet proliferation, free form input was a major waste of time at best ; so it has only been 10 years (barely) that you could argue the tools were sufficient. And even then it only works if you buy a sufficiently expensive tool that is sufficiently fast and precise (started making sense at first iPad Air era). So of course, they are comparing people using a skill they had decade(s) to hone versus a skill that can only have been acquired very recently. And I think it doesn't make sense to have pure typing vs pure handwriting, it often all the little things around the written language that help tremendously learning and recalling. The way the information is architected with various levels of "call to attention", small drawings, schemas, etc... A handwritten wall of notes is way more useless than a typed wall of notes because at least in the second case, it's gonna be easier to restructure it and make it much more "parseable". Then again, having to re-write it would increase the time/effort spent on it and translate as a "better learning". If you matched the time/effort on the typing part I doubt you would see a difference. But the reality is that the guy who typed stuff did it for efficiency in the first place so it's more likely than he won't spend as much time re-reading the notes which of course will translate in worse learning whatever that means. In the end all of this goes back to nonsense that learning things "by heart" is useful and a useful way to grade/rank peoples competence/capacity for comprehension. Handwriting like learning by heart is something that favors women (they are much more applied and they generally have much better handwriting) and it is not even surprising that this is pushed as truth.
- jmkd 3y agoIf your handwriting looks good and gives satisfaction you will do it more. It truly helps embodying thoughts and ideas, and provides another significant layer (like flavour in a recipe) of learning and understanding. I was fortunate to be taught Marion Richardson [0] style handwriting aged 8 or so, and decades years later my handwriting is still universally complimented. I hand write letters for pleasure and take notes by hand for more profound impact. If you look after a young person or are willing to go relearn it yourself I highly recommend the discipline and style that Marion Richardson demands. While learning it at first it looks childish, but it provides a foundation that you will immediately adapt with your own flavour. It got dropped in UK schools in the 1980s for being too old fashioned, for which I read 'difficult'. Sadly I cannot recommend any modern books or worksheets (through my own contemporary ignorance) but her original books from 1935 still stand up [1] [0] https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/M/bo13173116.html https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/M/bo13... [1] https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1326657/writing-and-writing-patterns-educational-booklets-marion-richardson/ https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1326657/writing-and-writ...
- chromatin 3y agoThe link at the V&A museum shows excerpts from a few pages. This looks incredible. It seems unlikely, but perhaps someone somewhere has scanned in a copy of an instructional book.
- Aeolun 3y agoThis doesn’t look particularly special? This is just a form of cursive right?
- jmkd 3y agoIt was the first time a system was developed that took note of how the hand moved ergonomically in order to create a natural way of writing (drawing) unnatural letters, and linking them together. This system allows you to write cursive with exceptional flow and - if you wish - flair, rather than simply copying complicated shapes and then having that body memory inevitably degrade over the years.
- Decabytes 3y agoI wrote about my techniques for learning in an blog post^1 and a big part of my technique is the hand written notes and the zettelkasten. I like handwritten notes for a few reasons. It allows me to practice my handwriting, specifically cursive. It allows me to take a break from looking at screens. It also helps me remember things by creating that mind body connection. But also, it’s so easy to type almost word for word what is being said if you are a fast typer, or copy and paste large chunks of text and media verbatim into digital software. Handwriting notes makes me more selective of the things I write, which makes me have to think more about what I’m writing. Finally not having access to my notes all the time on my phone, or laptop means I have to actually commit then to memory. I can’t use being able to quickly look up something I wrote down as a crutch for not memorizing something. Note taking is a skill and practice makes perfect. That and SQ3R has helped me get so much better at taking better notes. Plus alls I need is a some grid paper and a pencil, though my analog system has gotten considerably more sophisticated over time 1. https://www.deusinmachina.net/p/the-most-effective-way-i-know-how https://www.deusinmachina.net/p/the-most-effective-way-i-kno...
- bowsamic 3y agoI would love to write but my handwriting has always been poor and mocked by others, which has put me off
- rramadass 3y agoShould not matter; get started. My handwriting is atrocious (right from early school days my teachers have complained about it) and yet i write. Writing is personal; you are engaged in communicating with yourself and not with others; thus it doesn't matter what it looks like as long as you freely express yourself.
- bowsamic 3y agoIt’s not fun if it doesn’t look good
- rramadass 3y agoThere is a lot of silliness that something has to be "fun" in order to do it. Writing is talking to yourself, disciplining and bringing clarity to your thoughts, building a mental model and more. The goal is to understand something better and/or express oneself freely and not showboating/looking good.
- bowsamic 3y agoI don’t do something that isn’t fun unless I have to
- syndicatedjelly 3y agoMany things worth learning start out as not fun
- schwartzworld 3y agoThese kinds of reports have been coming out since computers were invented. There's no real evidence that writing by hand is better than typing, especially in people with bad handwriting. It's just bias coming from the last few generations that grew up without computers. "I learned cursive, therefore it must be good"
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- eterevsky 3y agoThe main advantage of handwriting is in the fact that it is slower, so it requires putting more thought into compressing whatever you are writing. (The article itself states it and I remember this explanation coming up in other studies.) To me it means that you could get benefits of writing when you are typing by adjusting what you are actually doing. For instance, you could re-read and edit what you have typed after the fact. Or you could deliberately try to phrase the notes in your own words.
- jonstewart 3y agoI was terrible at handwriting (especially cursive) as a kid, absolutely hated it, and my teachers compensated by having me do more work on the computer. Fantastic outcome. No fusty article in the Economist could convince me that cursive handwriting is a skill worth saving. When it came to taking notes in college, I realized I was lousy at taking notes by hand, that I’d pay more attention to the lecturer and wind up with few notes. When I took a laptop, I realized I could basically take dictation while still paying attention to what was said. Doodling programs out on a notebook does work better for me than doing similar on an iPad, however.
- wccrawford 3y agoMy parents (and one particular teacher) thought they could improve my handwriting by making me write the alphabet over and over. It backfired, and my writing got worse. It was painful, not fun, and I didn't care about it. So my sloppy writing got sloppier the more I did it. Now, I'm realizing that they all failed to teach me to write correctly, probably because they didn't actually know the difference. They all just remembered that their teachers had corrected bad penmanship that way, but without realizing that there was probably additional instruction involved in how to hold the pencil, and how to move the hand and arm properly to get good writing. I've often thought about working on my handwriting, but there's very little benefit now other than personal pride, and I've got so many other things I want to do.
- _a_a_a_ 3y ago> It truly helps embodying thoughts and ideas, and provides another significant layer (like flavour in a recipe) of learning and understanding Hmm. Maybe for you but perhaps you could back that claim up regarding the rest of the population. For me it matters not whether it be handwritten or typed, so long as it's there. Content is king.
- eviks 3y ago> One of the best-demonstrated advantages of writing by hand seems to be in superior note-taking. In a study from 2014 by Pam Mueller and Danny Oppenheimer, students typing wrote down almost twice as many words and more passages verbatim from lectures, suggesting they were not understanding so much as rapidly copying the material. > Handwriting—which takes longer for nearly all university-level students—forces note-takers to synthesise ideas into their own words. If this is the best demonstration, it means there is no advantage - this is just an illustration of the awfully designed lecture system where any copying is required at all instead of having the full transcript readily available and spending the time to actually listen
- davemp 3y agoNot sure I agree. Most of my classes had recorded lectures and good notes from the TAs, but I still found taking hand written notes to be helpful. I even tried switch to a laptop then switched back after less than a semester.
- eviks 3y agoUnfortunately, anecdote vs data
- Lanolderen 3y agoAlso to begin with having to shorten lecture material/notes on the spot because you can't write fast enough seems like a way to introduce errors. Not really superior.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y agoI'm pretty sure I could handily beat any handwriting fan in "synthesizing ideas into their own words" if professors provided small Anki decks of their material after class. Sadly I've never heard of anyone doing this.
- eviks 3y agoYeah, maybe in a couple of professor generations we'll get to some novel use of all this new tech
- BLKNSLVR 3y agoTwo things: 1. I get compliments about how nice my handwriting is. 2. It really does help me to remember details. I don't need to go back through my notes (I rarely do these days) but the mere fact of having written it down seems to lock it more tightly into my memory. Maybe I'll setup a little, completely un-scaleable online service whereby I'll write a hand written letter and send it to a chosen address on behalf of anyone willing to pay. No ransom notes.
- pcdandy 3y agoI think the real problem with handwriting is the way it has been thought in school. Growing up in mid 2000s Australia, I recall it being thought largely as a rote learning exercise in which one repeats the same letters over and over again without much context, which isn't a particularly exciting thing to do. (On the other hand I quickly learned to type fast as I enjoyed playing games + writing personal documents on my computer and wanted to do all of that as quickly as possible.) The funny thing was that some years later in 2016, I became highly interested in learning other writing systems for fun (and which I talk about on a blog of mine at [1]), which eventually also evolved into a newfound obsession with handwriting that I still practice today. Its really changed the way I see the written word and is a good way to remind oneself how letters on a screen are really the culmination of a few thousand years of scribes iterating through the older sharp, rigid and awkward letters and gradually evolving them into smoother and more fluid forms which can be drawn much faster by hand. [1]: https://alternatescriptbureau.wordpress.com https://alternatescriptbureau.wordpress.com
- Swizec 3y ago> Growing up in mid 2000s Australia, I recall it being thought largely as a rote learning exercise in which one repeats the same letters over and over again without much context, which isn't a particularly exciting thing to do Growing up in 90’s and early 2000’s Slovenia, this sounds strange to me. Yes we learned handwriting by rote repetition of letters in the first few months of first grade. But then we started writing real things. Even in college we were still expected to write essay answers on a piece of paper by hand. In high school we wrote entire essays – up to 1500 words – by hand at school for our literature exams. All our notes in class were handwritten at every level of schooling. Laptops started becoming a thing in college and most people quickly realized digital note-taking is far too clunky. You need the expressiveness and speed of handwriting to truly capture an idea. Hell even today I always have a notebook next to my keyboard when I work. The seamless transition between writing, drawing, and scribbling is unparalleled.
- pests 3y agoah yes, the notepad-as-a-mousepad technique
- PopAlongKid 3y agoJust last week, a law requiring cursive handwriting to be taught in elementary schools was enacted in California. (AB 446) https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240AB446 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
- wrp 3y agoAlthough TFA is about the psychological aspect of handwriting, this subject usually draws comment on the learning of handwriting. As a counterpoint to some typical comments, I'll point out that handwriting is a motor skill and that it is subject to the same constraints as developing any other motor skill. When speculating on the value of some approach, consider how well it would work for some other motor skill like tennis or woodcarving.
- pier25 3y agoEveryone is arguing about typing vs writing in memorizing but the main advantage is developing fine motor control which impacts cognitive development. https://journal.psych.ac.cn/adps/EN/10.3724/SP.J.1042.2015.00261 https://journal.psych.ac.cn/adps/EN/10.3724/SP.J.1042.2015.0...
- fastball 3y agoSuch research is actually why we started building our note-taking app[1] around digital notecards. When I was in university I was reading a lot of this literature, and came to the same conclusion as many of the researchers – the problem seems to be that typists just type too fast, and default to writing down everything a lecturer says instead of synthesizing/summarizing information as they go (which requires actual understanding). So we developed our (short-form digital notecard) format in the hopes that it would encourage users to slow down a bit and actually think about the notes they were making, and compartmentalize them as they went. We haven't actually done any studies ourselves, so I have no idea if it actually helps our average user, but for me personally it has made me take better notes. Mildly tangential but this is also why we have decided not to add any LLM features to our app yet – although very tempting to add the hot new thing, I personally feel that outsourcing your thinking to an LLM (in the case of a PKM system / "second brain") will almost certainly be a net negative for most people. [1] https://supernotes.app https://supernotes.app
- jamespo 3y agoI recently bought a Remarkable 2 e-ink tablet and it is so satisfying, in a way my ipad with pen isn't.
- WalterBright 3y agoI learned in college that the act of taking notes by hand helped fix the lectures in my memory. When I'd review the notes later, I'd hear the lecture in my mind along with it. Laptops in class don't work. Handouts that are copies of the presentation don't work. Leave the laptop in your room. Just bring a spiral notebook to class and a couple pens. It's the best way to learn from a lecture. Bonus: years later you'll enjoy going through your notebooks again.
- renewiltord 3y agoImho notes in class are a bad use of the time. Concentrate on the class. You can make notes later. Need to build your mental relationship and attach concepts to each other as they’re being discussed.
- hbarka 3y ago“On Friday (10/13/23) California Governor Newsom signed a bill that will require cursive instruction in first through sixth grade.” https://abc7news.com/cursive-california-schools-governor-newsom-teaching-handwriting/13926546/ https://abc7news.com/cursive-california-schools-governor-new...
- tomcam 3y agoI have fucking hated handwriting for 50 years. When personal computers became the thing I was overjoyed. It has always been very difficult physically for me to handle, and I am delighted to abandon it.
- BirAdam 3y agoMy handwriting is admired by most who see it. I put a lot of time and energy into learning to write more beautifully as a kid, and I was very much into creative writing, and conlanging. Over a few decades, this has now resulted in some rather painful repetitive stress issues in my right hand and wrist. I am not sure that I’d change my life at all, but I do think that children should be taught posture and instrument handling techniques to avoid damage to themselves.
- browningstreet 3y agoI’ve wondered if, in my 50s, I could improve my handwriting. I don’t write much by hand because I don’t feel good about its appearance and form. That said, I’m a force on the whiteboard, but that’s when brainstorming energy exceeds aesthetic/review energy.
- kazinator 3y ago> One of the best-demonstrated advantages of writing by hand seems to be in superior note-taking. In a study from 2014 by Pam Mueller and Danny Oppenheimer, students typing wrote down almost twice as many words and more passages verbatim from lectures, suggesting they were not understanding so much as rapidly copying the material. This is a very strained line of argumentation. The raw fact is that the typists are twice as fast.