6 ms·

Chris Rock solved this ages ago: "We don't have a gun problem, we have a bullet problem." Make bullets very expensive and hard to get. It makes much more sen

Chris Rock solved this ages ago: "We don't have a gun problem, we have a bullet problem." Make bullets very expensive and hard to get. It makes much more sense to control the supply of gunpowder (and bullets) than that of 3d printers (or guns for that matter).

lazide 3y ago
I hope you know that was a comedy skit and in no way actually does anything but inconvenience actually lawful folks?
deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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chung8123 3y ago
Wouldn't that make it harder to train and safely handle a weapon?
- cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
  That's how California operates already. Defenseless population who aren't allowed to defend themselves, skyrocketing crime, and police who are borderline worthless.
  - spaceribs 3y ago
    It seems urban centers are significantly safer than rural counties, by about 37%: https://www.chop.edu/news/study-finds-gun-deaths-more-likely-small-towns-big-cities https://www.chop.edu/news/study-finds-gun-deaths-more-likely...
    - chung8123 3y ago
      "Over that same period, the most rural county type had a 54% higher gun suicide death rate and a 50% lower gun homicide death rate compared with the most urban counties." I am not sure I am reading the data the same way as you. To me this shows urban areas have a much higher homicide rate which would be more associated with safety.
      - spaceribs 3y ago
        you don't think self harm and suicide is just as bad, if not worse, from a safety perspective?
        FatCat1978 3y ago
        Yes. Suicide doesn't infringe on other people's rights, and in fact, everyone should have the right to it, like you see in actually free countries like Canada. Using suicide as a safety metric is both misleading and generally in bad faith - it's usually a far better representation of mental health (generally loneliness/depression) or overall quality of life.
        spaceribs 3y ago
        Agreed that the overall quality of life is lower in rural counties which is leading to a mental health crisis, and agreed on the right to suicide. This amount of suicides from people who I assume are mostly able bodied and otherwise healthy though by gun indicates a few things to me though: 1. Guns are an extremely effective and fast method of suicide. 2. Sudden depression or psychosis could happen to anyone. 3. A mental state can be and usually is transitory or treatable. I think my belief from the above is that this is a safety issue in terms of the immediacy of the act, rather than the act itself. Taking pills, jumping from a bridge, asphyxiation all take time and planning. All you need is one gun in your house for self-defense bought years ago or inherited/borrowed from a close associate, or even for hunting, and there's nothing our societal safety net or your future self can provide for protection from your present self. I have a friend who was admitted to the hospital for medically induced psychosis (a known side effect of the medication prescribed by his doctor), it scares me to think that anyone trusts that their brain chemistry and state is this solid and unwavering foundation of sanity, that's simply not always the case.
willk 3y ago
I don't think that would solve anything. If a criminal is willing to get a gun by illegal means, why wouldn't they be willing to do the same for ammunition?
- spaceribs 3y ago
  I'd take a look at how NYC tamps down on smoking by both increasing taxes and impounding/raiding any illegal resale of untaxed cigarettes. You can buy cigarettes for sure, and you can go out of the city to buy cigarettes for less, but for most people they'd rather kick the habit than deal with the entire situation.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Yes but the proposed legislation doesn't really address illegal procurement of real guns either.
spaceribs 3y ago
I agree it's worth the legal debate, we have plenty of laws around controlled substances living on the fringes of constitutionality, why not add gunpowder as a schedule 2 substance?
- oldpersonintx 3y ago
  you presume this is something people even want at a minimum, this would not be seen as acceptable in the "constitutional carry" states - half of the country
  - spaceribs 3y ago
    I presume that some people didn't want marijuana to be schedule 1 federally, but here we are 60 years later, and gunpowder as a substance has killed far more people than marijuana in that time.
    - oldpersonintx 3y ago
      you might convince a majority to legalize weed, you will not convince a majority to criminalize black powder
      - spaceribs 3y ago
        A majority of people smoked 70 years ago even though smoking was terrible for their health and those around them. I'm not sure we should enforce the "people's will" to defend such a dangerous substance.
        cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
        That doesn't have anything to do with self-defense. Bullets are usable to defend against an otherwise deadly attack. An air nailer, a hammer, and a box cutter can be misused, should we ban those without solving the human social or policing problems?
oldpersonintx 3y ago
making bullets is even easier...especially if you have old spent brass
- cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
  You're arguing with the religiously anti-gun costal people who have their minds made up, are afraid of all firearms, and believe no one should have them... except the criminals.
  - spaceribs 3y ago
    Actually, you're arguing with people who consider gun deaths to be an epidemic[1], and are treating it as such. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1184731316/gun-violence-epidemic-suicide-mass-shooting-public-health-emergency-chicago https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1184731316/gun-violence-epide...
    - yeetawayhn 3y ago
      And yet those are the same people who don't consider alcohol deaths to be an epidemic, and aren't treating it as such.
      - spaceribs 3y ago
        I don't know anyone that finds the gun epidemic as well as the alcohol epidemic to not be equally bad.
        yeetawayhn 3y ago
        The numbers indicate that the alcohol epidemic is an order of magnitude worse. Someone who believes they are equally bad is either minimizing the alcohol epidemic or inflating the gun epidemic.
cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
Bullets are easier to make than guns. So what's your next bright idea?
madengr 3y ago
[dead]
Brian_K_White 3y ago
It doesn't make sense to control any common material or tool. There is nothing special about a bullet or an entire assembled cartridge. There is nothing in a bullet or a gun that you can control that doesn't also apply to bicycles and pens and teapots. There are some extra exotic fancy materials that can make merely bigger better bullets and bombs, but no one intending to do harm actually needs them. So you can control depleted uranium to make bullets that work a bit better than others, but plain lead, or steel or copper or iron or tin or nickle or even glass ones work well enough. You can control the main ingredient in a nuke, but no one actually needs that to completely destroy anything with other kinds of bombs that don't need any such special ingredient. This applies to every part of both a gun and a cartridge. There are no special or controllable in gredients or processes, fundamentally. You can only take a little bit of the shine off. If for example the assembled recognizable cartridge were simply outlawed, so there were no convenient factories producing the polished finished good, then people would just have to make slightly less polished versions, but not materially less effective. Any ingredient that you might think to target has countless alternatives if ever needed. Let's say cartridges are illegal, so the home cartridge maker needs brass tubing, so you go "aha! that is a pretty niche product that most people don't need, we can just control that! The problem is, brass tubing is not actually needed. nor is brass sheet. nor is brass. It's used today because it's a good fit for purpose, but you can use practically anything, especially if you have to design your own gun anyway, you can adjust the gun design to accomodate the needs of some other shell design. The same goes for every other part. A perfectly functional gun and it's ammunition can be constructed out of whatever is available. It's not limited to the specific design you see on a shelf today. I'm not a gun owner or lover, and am liberal on pretty much all topics, but these kinds of arguments about guns really are ignorant, which should be fine, it should be fine for most people to be ignorant of most things, but it's really a problem when it is used to forward policy.

lazide 3y ago

I hope you know that was a comedy skit and in no way actually does anything but inconvenience actually lawful folks?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

chung8123 3y ago

Wouldn't that make it harder to train and safely handle a weapon?

cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
That's how California operates already. Defenseless population who aren't allowed to defend themselves, skyrocketing crime, and police who are borderline worthless.
- spaceribs 3y ago
  It seems urban centers are significantly safer than rural counties, by about 37%: https://www.chop.edu/news/study-finds-gun-deaths-more-likely-small-towns-big-cities https://www.chop.edu/news/study-finds-gun-deaths-more-likely...
  - chung8123 3y ago
    "Over that same period, the most rural county type had a 54% higher gun suicide death rate and a 50% lower gun homicide death rate compared with the most urban counties." I am not sure I am reading the data the same way as you. To me this shows urban areas have a much higher homicide rate which would be more associated with safety.
    - spaceribs 3y ago
      you don't think self harm and suicide is just as bad, if not worse, from a safety perspective?
      - FatCat1978 3y ago
        Yes. Suicide doesn't infringe on other people's rights, and in fact, everyone should have the right to it, like you see in actually free countries like Canada. Using suicide as a safety metric is both misleading and generally in bad faith - it's usually a far better representation of mental health (generally loneliness/depression) or overall quality of life.
        spaceribs 3y ago
        Agreed that the overall quality of life is lower in rural counties which is leading to a mental health crisis, and agreed on the right to suicide. This amount of suicides from people who I assume are mostly able bodied and otherwise healthy though by gun indicates a few things to me though: 1. Guns are an extremely effective and fast method of suicide. 2. Sudden depression or psychosis could happen to anyone. 3. A mental state can be and usually is transitory or treatable. I think my belief from the above is that this is a safety issue in terms of the immediacy of the act, rather than the act itself. Taking pills, jumping from a bridge, asphyxiation all take time and planning. All you need is one gun in your house for self-defense bought years ago or inherited/borrowed from a close associate, or even for hunting, and there's nothing our societal safety net or your future self can provide for protection from your present self. I have a friend who was admitted to the hospital for medically induced psychosis (a known side effect of the medication prescribed by his doctor), it scares me to think that anyone trusts that their brain chemistry and state is this solid and unwavering foundation of sanity, that's simply not always the case.

willk 3y ago

I don't think that would solve anything. If a criminal is willing to get a gun by illegal means, why wouldn't they be willing to do the same for ammunition?

spaceribs 3y ago
I'd take a look at how NYC tamps down on smoking by both increasing taxes and impounding/raiding any illegal resale of untaxed cigarettes. You can buy cigarettes for sure, and you can go out of the city to buy cigarettes for less, but for most people they'd rather kick the habit than deal with the entire situation.
wkat4242 3y ago
Yes but the proposed legislation doesn't really address illegal procurement of real guns either.

spaceribs 3y ago

I agree it's worth the legal debate, we have plenty of laws around controlled substances living on the fringes of constitutionality, why not add gunpowder as a schedule 2 substance?

oldpersonintx 3y ago
you presume this is something people even want at a minimum, this would not be seen as acceptable in the "constitutional carry" states - half of the country
- spaceribs 3y ago
  I presume that some people didn't want marijuana to be schedule 1 federally, but here we are 60 years later, and gunpowder as a substance has killed far more people than marijuana in that time.
  - oldpersonintx 3y ago
    you might convince a majority to legalize weed, you will not convince a majority to criminalize black powder
    - spaceribs 3y ago
      A majority of people smoked 70 years ago even though smoking was terrible for their health and those around them. I'm not sure we should enforce the "people's will" to defend such a dangerous substance.
      - cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
        That doesn't have anything to do with self-defense. Bullets are usable to defend against an otherwise deadly attack. An air nailer, a hammer, and a box cutter can be misused, should we ban those without solving the human social or policing problems?

oldpersonintx 3y ago

making bullets is even easier...especially if you have old spent brass

cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
You're arguing with the religiously anti-gun costal people who have their minds made up, are afraid of all firearms, and believe no one should have them... except the criminals.
- spaceribs 3y ago
  Actually, you're arguing with people who consider gun deaths to be an epidemic[1], and are treating it as such. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1184731316/gun-violence-epidemic-suicide-mass-shooting-public-health-emergency-chicago https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1184731316/gun-violence-epide...
  - yeetawayhn 3y ago
    And yet those are the same people who don't consider alcohol deaths to be an epidemic, and aren't treating it as such.
    - spaceribs 3y ago
      I don't know anyone that finds the gun epidemic as well as the alcohol epidemic to not be equally bad.
      - yeetawayhn 3y ago
        The numbers indicate that the alcohol epidemic is an order of magnitude worse. Someone who believes they are equally bad is either minimizing the alcohol epidemic or inflating the gun epidemic.

cvccvroomvroom 3y ago

Bullets are easier to make than guns. So what's your next bright idea?

madengr 3y ago

[dead]

Brian_K_White 3y ago

It doesn't make sense to control any common material or tool. There is nothing special about a bullet or an entire assembled cartridge. There is nothing in a bullet or a gun that you can control that doesn't also apply to bicycles and pens and teapots. There are some extra exotic fancy materials that can make merely bigger better bullets and bombs, but no one intending to do harm actually needs them. So you can control depleted uranium to make bullets that work a bit better than others, but plain lead, or steel or copper or iron or tin or nickle or even glass ones work well enough. You can control the main ingredient in a nuke, but no one actually needs that to completely destroy anything with other kinds of bombs that don't need any such special ingredient. This applies to every part of both a gun and a cartridge. There are no special or controllable in gredients or processes, fundamentally. You can only take a little bit of the shine off. If for example the assembled recognizable cartridge were simply outlawed, so there were no convenient factories producing the polished finished good, then people would just have to make slightly less polished versions, but not materially less effective. Any ingredient that you might think to target has countless alternatives if ever needed. Let's say cartridges are illegal, so the home cartridge maker needs brass tubing, so you go "aha! that is a pretty niche product that most people don't need, we can just control that! The problem is, brass tubing is not actually needed. nor is brass sheet. nor is brass. It's used today because it's a good fit for purpose, but you can use practically anything, especially if you have to design your own gun anyway, you can adjust the gun design to accomodate the needs of some other shell design. The same goes for every other part. A perfectly functional gun and it's ammunition can be constructed out of whatever is available. It's not limited to the specific design you see on a shelf today. I'm not a gun owner or lover, and am liberal on pretty much all topics, but these kinds of arguments about guns really are ignorant, which should be fine, it should be fine for most people to be ignorant of most things, but it's really a problem when it is used to forward policy.