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Is there any reason to expect that these additional costs won't be passed onto California consumers? All the physical industry is moving out of California. Inte

Is there any reason to expect that these additional costs won't be passed onto California consumers? All the physical industry is moving out of California. Intel's last plant was moved out around what, 2008 (?). What do we think is going to happen? There is no magic. Companies raise prices and/or move out to the more favorable locations, including overseas (e.g. China, Vietnam, Mexico).

standardUser 3y ago
Yeah, regulations have costs and economies change over time, not exactly a news flash. But California is one of the largest and most advanced economies in the world. The same is true of Germany, which has been getting the California treatment recently. And both are currently performing very well given the global context (inflation, energy) and have proven tremendously robust historically, which makes these constant declarations of doom and gloom especially suspicious to me.
- g42gregory 3y ago
  "Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?" [1] [1] https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-russia-8a00eebbfab3f20c5c66b1cd85ae84ed https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-rus...
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Well, they've lost (almost) free gas from Russia.
  - standardUser 3y ago
    Dude, they are having a mild recession because of an energy shock and inflation. It's like being the slowest guy at the olympics. But for just one race.
ars 3y ago
They will be passed on, but Californians expect it. The prices are high, and the salary is high. It actually helps them: They can import cheap goods from elsewhere and barely notice the cost. I've noticed this in NYC - things are just so cheap relative to income that people don't care at all about items, they are very wasteful relative to other places I've been, and they kind of have to be, because they don't have much storage space. "Buy it, use it, toss it, buy it again when you need it." In contrast in places with more space (and lower income) people tend to store things for reuse.
FranchuFranchu 3y ago
Any carbon tax or carbon tax-like policy will be passed on. However, the _absence of a carbon tax_ already causes costs we don't see yet, when in the future, people die as a consequence of climate change.
- 01100011 3y ago
  > the _absence of a carbon tax_ already causes costs we don't see yet We're talking about CA here. A single, albeit large, US state. As we see from emissions moving from the west to China, if CA imposes a tax then carbon emissions will just move somewhere else. The absence of a carbon tax in one US state likely has little effect on AGW. I would argue that interfering with market based production location may cause even more emissions as shipping costs may increase.
  - Daishiman 3y ago
    This is just one step in a series of future legislation being planned in many developed countries to price carbon from imported goods.
    - 01100011 3y ago
      Ok, so all the carbon moves to developing nations that don't care. What will we have achieved beyond lowering the standard of living in developed nations?
      - Daishiman 3y ago
        A dramatic reduction in pollution resulting in fewer deaths by respiratory hazards? And once carbon pricing for imports comes in you get to price carbon appropriately all around?
- adasdasdas 3y ago
  Just to be clear, we want costs to be passed on because the real solution to climate change is an adjustment to our consumption habits.
asdff 3y ago
People moan about these sorts of costs to the consumer but its such small fish. Oh the gas tax in California makes it tough for people I'm sure, having to pay another whole $7 to fill up the tank. Meanwhile 1 bedroom rent might be around $2k depending on where you live in the state. Carbon tax could literally double the cost of food, sending a single person from maybe a $75 grocery run a week to a $150 run, and it still wouldn't amount to much more than maybe two concert tickets a month, still only a fraction of rent. Goes to show how inflated rent is relative to just about every other aspect of life in this state.
jtriangle 3y ago
Of course they'll just pass the costs onto consumers. California is highly competitive, and competition always means slimmer margins, and slimmer margins mean a business can't eat additional costs and remain viable.

standardUser 3y ago

Yeah, regulations have costs and economies change over time, not exactly a news flash. But California is one of the largest and most advanced economies in the world. The same is true of Germany, which has been getting the California treatment recently. And both are currently performing very well given the global context (inflation, energy) and have proven tremendously robust historically, which makes these constant declarations of doom and gloom especially suspicious to me.

g42gregory 3y ago
"Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened?" [1] [1] https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-russia-8a00eebbfab3f20c5c66b1cd85ae84ed https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-rus...
- scotty79 3y ago
  Well, they've lost (almost) free gas from Russia.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Dude, they are having a mild recession because of an energy shock and inflation. It's like being the slowest guy at the olympics. But for just one race.

ars 3y ago

They will be passed on, but Californians expect it. The prices are high, and the salary is high. It actually helps them: They can import cheap goods from elsewhere and barely notice the cost. I've noticed this in NYC - things are just so cheap relative to income that people don't care at all about items, they are very wasteful relative to other places I've been, and they kind of have to be, because they don't have much storage space. "Buy it, use it, toss it, buy it again when you need it." In contrast in places with more space (and lower income) people tend to store things for reuse.

FranchuFranchu 3y ago

Any carbon tax or carbon tax-like policy will be passed on. However, the _absence of a carbon tax_ already causes costs we don't see yet, when in the future, people die as a consequence of climate change.

01100011 3y ago
> the _absence of a carbon tax_ already causes costs we don't see yet We're talking about CA here. A single, albeit large, US state. As we see from emissions moving from the west to China, if CA imposes a tax then carbon emissions will just move somewhere else. The absence of a carbon tax in one US state likely has little effect on AGW. I would argue that interfering with market based production location may cause even more emissions as shipping costs may increase.
- Daishiman 3y ago
  This is just one step in a series of future legislation being planned in many developed countries to price carbon from imported goods.
  - 01100011 3y ago
    Ok, so all the carbon moves to developing nations that don't care. What will we have achieved beyond lowering the standard of living in developed nations?
    - Daishiman 3y ago
      A dramatic reduction in pollution resulting in fewer deaths by respiratory hazards? And once carbon pricing for imports comes in you get to price carbon appropriately all around?
adasdasdas 3y ago
Just to be clear, we want costs to be passed on because the real solution to climate change is an adjustment to our consumption habits.

asdff 3y ago

People moan about these sorts of costs to the consumer but its such small fish. Oh the gas tax in California makes it tough for people I'm sure, having to pay another whole $7 to fill up the tank. Meanwhile 1 bedroom rent might be around $2k depending on where you live in the state. Carbon tax could literally double the cost of food, sending a single person from maybe a $75 grocery run a week to a $150 run, and it still wouldn't amount to much more than maybe two concert tickets a month, still only a fraction of rent. Goes to show how inflated rent is relative to just about every other aspect of life in this state.

jtriangle 3y ago

Of course they'll just pass the costs onto consumers. California is highly competitive, and competition always means slimmer margins, and slimmer margins mean a business can't eat additional costs and remain viable.