7 ms·
The Largest Greek Manuscript?
- janandonly 3y agoIt's incredible to think that museums and private collections are filled with manuscripts and clay tablets all writing in languages that scholars can read, and yet, many have never been translated, let alone digitized. More than half a million clay tablets have been found in the Middle East alone so far [1]. And there is serious interest in using LLM's to assist in translation work [2]. [1] Page 9: https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/letters_from_mesopotamia.pdf https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/d... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37915931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37915931
- pbhjpbhj 3y agoPresumably this problem will be solved as researches develop better tools over the next decade or so, inasmuch as once you can point an app at a clay tablet to see a full translation then owners will seek to do so? Tablet owners would presumably want to find valuable tablets, researchers can duplicate the data from the app; voilà?
- sbjs 3y agoNot everything said is worthy of being heard. True yesterday, today, and forever.
- vodovod 3y agoA friend of mine, a historian, says that people only wrote down what was important to them at that time - and that was, more often than not, who owed them money.
- tea-coffee 3y ago"Worthy" is a relative word. For historians, translating these tablets is incredibly worthy however mundane it is to the layperson.
- zopa 3y agoIf we're talking about writing from ancient Sumeria, or another civilization in the distant past, than everything we can recover really is valuable. A text doesn't have to be another Epic of Gilgamesh for it to teach us a lot about societies we know relatively little about.
- sbjs 3y agoYou have an implicit assumption that the benefit of learning information always justifies the effort and time spent on learning it. I don't think that's a given or true.
- notdang 3y agoNot everything has to be a benefit.
- coldtea 3y agoFor many of us it's not about some cost/benefit analysis, but passion and curiosity.
- sbjs 3y agoThat's still following an objective perceived benefit: quenching a passion and satisfying curiosity.
- coldtea 3y agoIt's following a passion, but hardly an "objectively perceived benefit". Except in the sense that everything is a benefit (including shooting heroin, where the benefit is the high, and so on) where the term becomes meaningless. But even so, it still wouldn't be "objectively perceived". More like "subjectively pursued and felt".
- sbjs 3y ago> where the term becomes meaningless Sure, you're welcome to just stop examining thoughts at the surface level and not dig deeper. Other people here seem content with that. I'm not.
- tomcam 3y agoHard disagree when it comes to any ancient text. For example, many of the oldest cuneiform tablets are simply accounting and receipts. They give a direct insight into what was considered valuable enough to keep track of back then. Likewise, marginalia and even doodles tell us a great deal about what some individuals were thinking about. This is as interesting to me as any form of literature.
- Xerox9213 3y agoEven if that is true, how do you know if something is worthy of being read without reading it? Isn’t the ability to write it off as unworthy worth the time to read it?
- altairTF 3y agoA sheep count on a 3000 year old clay tablet is cool enough to be heard
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mvcalder 3y agoOne of my favorite things to do in museums is to use Google Translate on artifacts. I find it so exciting to point my phone at a 500 year old vase and read what it says. Here are a couple examples from a trip I tool to the British Museum, it handled the Arabic and Chinese pretty well but the Rosetta Stone's Greek stumped it. [1] Arabic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/jQw3QCdC5PrWQGkr9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/jQw3QCdC5PrWQGkr9 [2] Chinese: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dXhsH7Xq6zpFS6Eq8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/dXhsH7Xq6zpFS6Eq8 [3] Greek: https://photos.app.goo.gl/DBGWCDd8EhzuB2y67 https://photos.app.goo.gl/DBGWCDd8EhzuB2y67
- qingcharles 3y agoThis is fantastic, thank you. And this is only going to get better over the next couple of years. Totally incredible.
- wolverine876 3y agoThat is the history of the Beowulf manuscipt, nearly lost without ever being found: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37918169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37918169
- TedDoesntTalk 3y agoAmazing write-up.
- swingingFlyFish 3y agoThis is pretty cool. Thanks so much for sharing!!
- dr_dshiv 3y agoI want a system (a wiki?) where there is a table with the Greek language transcription on the left, one row per section, and English on the right. You can access the original image easily. You can edit and talk and comment. What systems exist like this for managing manuscripts and their collaborative translation and discussion?
- mold_aid 3y agoI don't know about "collaborative," but TAPoR (tapor.ca) has lists of concordance software.
- h4l 3y agoHave you come across iiif? https://iiif.io/ https://iiif.io/ It's not exactly that, but it's the sort of thing that its standards and viewing apps aim to enable.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- abh123 3y agoSefaria is sort of this but for Hebrew scriptures. https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.1.1?lang=bi&aliyot=0 https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.1.1?lang=bi&aliyot=0 You can't see the original image though.
- NKosmatos 3y agoNice one, especially the part about the ancient hypertext/hyperlink system: “…They also devised an elaborate system of symbols emphasising the connection between the main text written in the centre of each page and the commentary excerpts placed in the surrounding margins. The commentaries became very popular elements of school education, being named scholia (‘school material’) as a result … and … Signs written in red ink connecting marginal commentaries to the main text” Incidentally, the word scholia in modern Greek literally means comments :-)
- Koshkin 3y agoAnd in the Ancient Greek σχολή meant all of what we now have different words for: learning, lecture, and discussion. Which indicates that discussion may have been the preferred method of teaching (learning).
- Zancarius 3y agoThe thing I find most striking about it at first glance is almost hilarious to me, and it's best illustrated by this remark: "Christian commentators adopted a similar system. They placed the Biblical text in the centre of each page, written in larger, more prominent characters, adding the commentary around it in smaller letters, so that as much as possible could fit on the page." We still do this with modern study Bibles! NET and ESV as very recent printings, for example, both have fairly similar layouts, though NET is probably closest to this since it doesn't contain introductory text typeset differently from the rest of the commentary. If it works... Even more amusing: The red ink connections bring to mind how Logos (the Bible software) works where each commentary or other text that references another text are all interlinked within your library and can be clicked or moused-over. And we think our modern era is so novel! Hah! In all seriousness, it'd be interesting to see how the sample of OT texts in this compare to the LXX since the article (to me) seems to suggest this contained comments specifically to help with the Septuagint's peculiar grammar (and I didn't get from their remarks that the verse text is changed or updated?). Absolutely fascinating!
- johncalvinyoung 3y agoI know! I sent this to my family group chat. Had no idea the specific typographical patterns of our study Bibles go so far back!
- verisimi 3y agolooking at the page, linked in the article: https://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo-explore/fulldisplay?vid=IAMS_VU2&docid=IAMS032-001779572&context=L https://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo-explore/fulldisplay?vid=I... one can see that the book's confirmed provenance is: "Purchased from C. G. Aspiotis, 11 October 1897." How do they determine it to be from: "2nd half of the 12th century- 1st half of the 13th century" ? Where was the document for 700 years? (From 1200's to 1897.) Why should one accept the older date? Its surely possible that this sort of thing is fakeable... and worth a fortune, etc..
- c0brac0bra 3y agoThere's a "custodial history" section on that page.
- verisimi 3y agoI saw and that's where I'm getting the info from, partly. There is no info there, to explain the 700 missing years.
- pacaro 3y agoThere is an ancient greek inscription on page 467r which reads (translated by chat gpt) "Whoever removes this present book from the place where the humble body of me, Theodosius the Prince, lies, let them be anathema, separated from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and may their portion be with Judas the betrayer." which is presumably used to assert the ownership of the book by Theodosius of Prinkipos There's also another inscription on page 3r which translates as "And this [is] from Paisios, Bishop of Vothrotou and Glykeos, among others."
- Zancarius 3y agoN.B.: I am not a biblical scholar. I just read way too much. That said, in addition to what pacaro wrote... Where we get the date of many of these manuscripts from is some combination of how and where they were found, in this tome's case the custodial history helps, but also the writing style, use of particular idiomatic language, or word/grammar utilization. Mentions of specific events or pieces of information that may have a known point in history also help, because obviously a material cannot predate an event that hasn't yet occurred. Often works cite others that have more well-established provenance or are themselves cited elsewhere. Carbon dating helps, but because of material reuse it's sometimes unreliable (and obviously can be faked with enough money to purchase/reuse ancient materials, as you pointed out in your earlier comment). In the case of this manuscript, I would find this possibility to be rather unlikely due simply to the volume (ahem) of materials used. Given also that it is mostly a commentary on what appears to be based on the LXX the motivation for faking it is much less. Here are a couple of sources that might help: https://textandcanon.org/four-ways-scholars-date-early-hebrew-bible-manuscripts/ https://textandcanon.org/four-ways-scholars-date-early-hebre... https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/words-bible/question8-how-is-the-age-of-an-ancient-manuscript-determined.cfm https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/words-b... One example of the use of idiomatic language as a dating tool that comes to mind: It is one of reasons why the precise dating of the book of Daniel is a somewhat problematic topic. Its use of specific vocabulary wasn't known in any extant works at the time of the earlier date, suggesting it was either authored later or saw edits/redactions by the time of the Babylonian exile. Exhilic and post-exhilic edits aren't entirely unknown in much of the OT, so that's always a possibility. My personal opinion reading the body of literature surrounding Daniel is that it is likely an edited work around a much more ancient core (6th century BC), but I'm always open to other arguments. I suspect the age of this manuscript is accurate and isn't a later contrivance. Welcome to the world of textual criticism!
- Liam2010 3y ago[dead]
- acyou 3y agoI would dearly love to read the translated annotations of Townley Homer. It is incredibly exciting to think that it will probably happen in my lifetime. Knowing nothing about translation of classics, I won't go so far as to say that I have the tools and knowledge at my own disposal to do a rudimentary translation myself. But I'm expecting great things in the future.
- huytersd 3y agoYou could see if image chatGPT can decipher it.
- immersible 3y agoIn considering the hypothesis of history fabrication through object crafting one has to assume that, whoever would be involved in such an activity, would have a lot invested in it and not be a mere dilletant. Furthermore, if such activity were to be carried out with the intent of preserving wealth and exerting control over populations, it would be plausible to assume that the activity would be carried out by a specific lineage and would, thus, span multiple generations. Just as, say, families that specialize in wine production or ancient furniture restoration, a traditional business of historical artifact production would procure materials and store them with care, so that when the need arose, all that was needed was already handy. If carefully considered, the hypothesis of producing specific artifacts to make for an augmented reality that then is sold to the general public could actually be pretty easily accomplished.